RTCW - The Harsh State Of Things

[method' Profile]

Sorry all but recent topics and posts have led me to want to make this post. This debate about hacking will go on until the game eventually dies off because nothing was done about it.

I stopped playing ECGN last year. I’m just putting forward what I believe is the harsh state of things for RTCW and ECGN. I used to love playing ECGN so apologies for the length of post.

There are hacks on ECGN, a small minority but in my honest opinion there are obvious hacks/bots. Honest players get into abusive spouts with these hackers because they know they are being conned, some turn a blind eye, others leave the game altogether.

The community of ECGN rely on PunkBuster to provide sufficient hack updates for a game that’s now 10 years old, this is aimed to prevent coders either hacking the game themselves and players going out and buying professionally made multi-hacks that won’t be caught by PunkBuster.

PunkBuster for RTCW is now dated. They won’t provide the support needed to prevent multi-hacks being used on ECGN and they haven’t for years.

If you honestly believe there are no hacks on ECGN or even RTCW then I’m sorry but you must be delusional. The fact that a caught hacker can simply go out and buy a new GUID to get around the ban and there’s a video on YouTube of some random player testing an undetected hack on ECGN just further ridicules the situation.

I have no proof and won’t mention who myself and others believe are hacks/bots, but the fact is there’s nothing to stop them anymore and It’s the same names mentioned every time, by experienced, decent players.

The sad thing is there are some very good honest players on the server who have played the game for long enough to know how the game engine works and they either leave the game altogether or turn a blind eye in the hope PB will eventually catch those “names” who are continually accused on these forums.

Many players who are very good at the game and played it for years question this small minority and rightly so, some of the stuff they pull off in game is borderline ridiculous. Not only that but they play for themselves, cause all sorts of problems with the balance of the game and to be blunt just suck the fun out of the game.

Some of you stop kidding yourselves that this continuously mentioned minority of players, who continuously crop up into these topics on the forum and on the server, who whilst playing can clear a room of 6 opposition with ease on their own in ridiculous situations, whilst taking little damage from other very good players, whilst permanently having sprint and without tapping shoot get very little bullet spread... are not hacking.

My opinion is those of you who protect these players are either hacking yourself, a pal of theirs and just sticking up for them or clueless as to how the game should work.

Ill stress that some players on the server do call out hacks far too easily and openly (I’m sure the regulars can list a few if they wanted). There are some very, very good players on ECGN who have learned the game for years and consequently get the better of players on a regular basis...that’s life.

But there are a small minority who consistently defy the games engine and pull off what is supposed to be impossible in the game.

Whilst spectating you see these players pull off stats like 1-3 headshot to bullet ratio in multiple 1 against 5 fire fight situations on a regular basis without tapping shoot, whilst sprinting...Give me a break, no one is that good. This ratio then becomes higher to about a feasible 1-6 once you take into account random fire situations and pre fire etc.

Honest players just take it on the chin because nothing will be done and they enjoy the game so much...or they leave the game because the competitiveness is void when a bot is doing the work for some.

I find it stupid that there are very obvious players on ECGN who are using multi-hacks, the community continuously complains about them, some have even been banned before (either by PB and they got a new GUID or by an admin of the server), they are generally manipulative to honest players and abusive...yet nothing is done about their continuous BS.

The only person that canprevent hacks on ECGN now in my honest opinion is MAA. He would have to take a no proof needed attitude towards hackers so that the server regulars could at least be sure something is being done to prevent it other than waiting for PB to update.

As I’ve mentioned I don’t think PB will keep the game clean, it’s too old and dated. You can’t rely on screenshots or demos to prove anything as the hacks are very well made, have various features that can literally be turned on or off at the click of a button and most importantly subtle, coders make fortunes from selling them for all sorts of fps games so they have to be.

For the above reasons I believe only MAA can provide the fix by reviewing and analysing players that are accused and making a decision based on his own experience on how the game engine should work.

Whether the deciding factor be the players attitude, stats, or the way he / she plays or whether MAA simply believes they are not legit. Turning a blind eye hoping PB is going to prevent this minority has been hurting the server for years, whether it be because of people leaving for a more honest game or the constant arguments that occur between the regulars and these hackers on the server & forum.

Admins can’t do this because they take sides within the community and are biased.

The server as far as I’m aware is MAA's, and for this reason he can take an unbiased, analytic approach with the problem players consistently mentioned throughout these threads and decide as to if they are beneficial for his servers prosperity. If he deems they aren’t then IP ban them to avoid them getting a new GUID and be done with it.

It sounds silly but that’s the only way you will prevent honest players leaving the greatest game and server for newer games that are better updated & supported to prevent hacking.

It will also prevent hackers and verbal abuse that occurs on the server as everyone would be made aware there’s a zero tolerance “you don’t need to be caught by PB to end up banned” attitude being enforced.

MAA may get 1 or 2 decisions wrong, but I’m 90% sure if the above were to happen the majority of those reviewed & banned would either be hackers that weren’t caught by PB or just players the server is better off without to keep it a fun place to game.

I don’t give a shit if this post gets laughed at or ridiculed. I’m fairly sure I know the names of those who will mock it. I know the above sounds all serious but try to understand RTCW was a hobby of mine until the above situation got out of hand – id like it back if possible but don’t find it fun when there are regular hackers and griefers playing the server every day.

The sooner something is done about it the better. I don’t play anymore, loved the server and its community. But while these obvious hackers are on ECGN and for some reason protected with this "innocent until proven guilty by PB" attitude and are allowed to get there kicks by griefing fellow gamers, people will leave for inferior, but more protected & competitive games.

You will be closer to a more honest, hack free, less abusive server with the above methodology, rather than waiting for a dated PunkBuster to update a 10 year old game they no longer care about and view as a lost cause.

[picmip Profile]

Method you dont really play anymore so you don't really know what goes on in the server i think, and it is true that some of the people that come here "crying" hack are just upset they got handled, and can't get over the fact.

the server is full of different skill levels and people that still play are good people and i really have not come across someone that i think hacks.

And if someone does hack, they should be banned, i think it would be a challenge to go up against one just for shits and kicks..

[picmip Profile]

good post too, you have some good points.

[B]

I know there are hackers. I am sorry that we admins can not take it upon ourselves to ban the ones we do believe to be hacking. We are not aloud. We are suppose to have proof. I wish we could ban the ones the legit players are crying about. I PB banned 16 different guids on Mofo for him to just turn around and rejoin under a new one. I have had so many people cry to me about Booty, Skibby, Mofo Remedy and Flessan to name a small few. 3 of those I do believe hack without a doubt. I wish there was an updated pb. The game is dying and hackers make it die a little more each game. All I can say is,I am sorry we admins can't do better.

[Unsobering Profile]

I know there are hackers. I am sorry that we admins can not take it upon ourselves to ban the ones we do believe to be hacking. We are not aloud. We are suppose to have proof. I wish we could ban the ones the legit players are crying about. I PB banned 16 different guids on Mofo for him to just turn around and rejoin under a new one. I have had so many people cry to me about Booty, Skibby, Mofo Remedy and Flessan to name a small few. 3 of those I do believe hack without a doubt. I wish there was an updated pb. The game is dying and hackers make it die a little more each game. All I can say is,I am sorry we admins can't do better.

Flessan? as in =tao=flessan?

i can't see that one.

[MAN-AT-ARMS]

Where's the demos and screenshots? I don't ban someone for hacking just because someone else says they are.

I don't rely solely on Punkbuster either but with NOONE bringing forth anything else to go on, what do you want me to do?

All good players get accused of hacking at one point or another.

In other news...Happy Penguin runs a rotation server now.

[W0lfy Profile]

Uhh...the game died years ago. Let's not start a witch hunt. Just play.

[=TAO=Flessan Profile]

Flessan? as in =tao=flessan?

i can't see that one.

I was just thinking the same thing.
_____________________________________________________

I very much agree with you meth0d, we took the same line at TAO.. and then got our server crashed into the ground. Granted, we banned alot of people.. but I stand behind 99 percent of those bans as being necessary to preserve the fun environment. We didn't start losing a base until our server went down every 30 minutes.

However, even with extensive knowledge of the workings of the RTCW engine (meaning beyond my own, I dealt mainly in perusing screenshots and cross referencing I.Ps during my time as admin) So many things, even after all these years, are purely speculative. Screenshots mean nothing, and several glitches with recording people also make it a lost endeavor. Many things can appear to happen in a demo that don't actually happen. (Basically, only the very simple hacks or the idiots who don't know how to hide them can be caught.) Thanks to all the new Windows versions and antivirus false positives, (not to mention the obvious code-monkey factor) most everything having to do with PB has become obsolete.

In my opinion the only absolute ways to prevent people from hacking on your server are...

1. Revert to the most hated PB tool, "Whitelist," and slowly add to the "safe" list whenever things are proven to be OK. However, since most everyone on the server will be kicked every 4 - 5 minutes and will eventually quit playing, the more feasible way is option 2.

2. Ban everyone.

[Paco's Gun Profile]

In other news...Happy Penguin runs a rotation server now.

This.

[B]

Flessan? as in =tao=flessan?

i can't see that one.

I have had complaints about Fless. Never worried about it as they came from people who couldn't even pull a 1.0 kr.

[method' Profile]

Thanks for the reply & I agree with you Picmip that I don’t really play anymore and don’t really know what’s going on in the server but I bet I could make a well educated guess. Whilst I don’t play anymore I’m fairly sure the server and its community hasn’t really changed that much – in fact you can tell that just by reading this forum and the stats home page.

I also agree there are different skill levels throughout the game and perhaps some people who have been accused on these forums for cheating aren’t actually doing anything illegitimate and are just talented more so than others at the game, this is achieved through training and learning the way the game works.

If you truly want to go up against hackers for shits and kicks then I suggest you visit Allstars server. I can email you the IP and a list of names that are on the MBL and still actively using hacks there every evening, if you get to know them well enough they may even admit it to you. The reason for this scenario is because these players are close friends with the server host and are allowed to play due to the fact the server would die if the hackers weren’t allowed to stay there – i.e. they are 60 - 70% of the population. You can go up in a death match style game against them. I think after some time you will be surprised at how well you can do against them – the point being is bots aren’t as outrageously clear as you may think. People who are very good at the game can develop to the point where they can at least hold their own against bots through sensible gun play, teamwork and tactics. This would probably lead to how I’ve been accused on occasion on ECGN. Don’t let ECGN turn into Allstars, it would be such a shame.

This happens to a lesser extent on ECGN, and yes it can make some people better, buts its definitely not a good thing to have on your server, honest players can only take so much until they leave altogether. I understand you don’t believe there to be any hacks on ECGN but maybe after you’ve played against people you know for a fact are hacking you will change your mind...I don’t know.

Try to think of the problem like this; ill emphasise the point B was touching on.

I wonder how many people either stop playing ECGN for awhile, maybe an hour, or leave the game altogether because of this very topic. Because they are experienced and know there is no updated anti-cheat system for RTCW anymore and there are 4 or 5 quite obvious bots playing on ECGN server every day spoiling the competitive multiplayer edge and general fun the game has to offer and that so many people visit the server for.

I’m talking about the 4 or 5 players who people are so certain are bots they are consistently accused throughout these forums and on the server every week, every year. The same few who every sensible, honest, decent 10 year experienced player should know by now that they are definitely not playing fairly. I’m not even sure how they are overlooked to be honest – it really is that clear.

Say there are 100 people who play ECGN regularly (there’s probably a lot more, I don’t know).

Say I am 1% of the server population on ECGN and I have left for other games because of the above scenario. This is taking into account the assumption that at the moment I am the only one who has left for the above reasons – this number could be and probably is a lot higher.

Then the obvious hackers who constantly are accused and to be frank just blatant are 5%.

I wonder how much that 1% grows each year because of these obvious hackers. And I wonder how much the 5% grows each year because it’s almost tolerated now that PB is so dated.

I’m absolutely certain it could even work out that the 1% could in fact shrink if regulars knew hacking wasn’t occurring so much on ECGN and PB was up to date but that’s not the case.

The point I’m making is there are 4 or 5 people who are consistently suspected, they are clear as day to me, and many others, but obviously not to the right people. They are a very small percentage of the community.

Why not try and save or at least preserve the percentage of the community that really matters. Stop bending over for these obvious hackers and blindsiding what so many people believe in enough to constantly complain about, show some bottle and do something proactive about it because PB won’t fix it.

If they were to be banned – You would only ever lose the population of that 5% that are always mentioned and causing trouble for the server. You wouldn’t risk losing any more popularity and you would open up the possibility that even more honest players would stay and play longer and may actually come back to play regularly. You may even increase the longevity of the game and server if the 1% knew at least something proactive was being done to prevent hackers. Finally It would also provide a strong message to RTCW gamers, that ECGN won’t tolerate any bullshit.

Those banned may even get a new GUID. But how often would they come back and use their hacks and give up the alias on ECGN once they knew there was actually something being done to prevent it from happening.

You would begin a process where people wouldn’t even bother using hacks once they returned with a new GUID because they don’t want to be reviewed again, made out to be the same person, and banned. In other words there’s a possibility hacking could be filtered out of the server without permanently banning players forever. (Unlikely, either way I believe no hacker should get a second chance, having said that I do know of some on the MBL who are very good players without them and did learn their lesson).

I apologise if I’ve given the wrong impression (B & MAA) to the admins & host, I think the admins and host do a great job with the server and its community and perhaps my initial post sounded unappreciative. ECGN is truly a fantastic server and RTCW is truly such a fun game to play. But I also believe this minority that are so often spoken about are like leeches, sucking the fun out of the game and life out of the community, and consequently slowly it depletes.

In my initial post I did not mean to give the impression that admins are useless in this scenario or that only MAA personally can provide a solution on his own, I am absolutely sure a lot of work goes into being and admin or a server host. I am certain the admins and host of ECGN could come up with a better thought out strategy then the one I suggested & work together to prevent this unfortunate scenario getting worse.

The point of my post was to make aware to everyone who has decided to complain about the same hackers on these threads over and over again the harsh state of things. You are probably correct; they probably are hacking, however...

Rightly said somewhere PunkBuster is now obsolete. In other words hackers won’t get caught and there is no factual evidence anyone can present against these players that would be sufficient enough to support a permanent ban from the server. Many people think there are regular hackers playing on the server, and it’s the same names that crop up. If I give my honest opinion based on my own experience and game play knowledge of how the game works... I think they are right.

I wanted to provide an example of how the situation could be combated and provide some direction rather than sounding like I’m just here to complain and being arrogant. If I’m not going to play anymore I can at least not play knowing I tried to make things better.

As MAA has said no one is putting forward any ideas (I’ve tried, and made several suggestions). I don’t know what else the admins rely on to help them catch hackers other than PB, yawn and MBL, but I know it’s not working.

As I stated I don’t have proof. I’m not even going to attempt to provide any, especially for this minority mentioned, you really shouldn’t need any after 10 years playing the game it’s that obvious. I touched on why I believe screenshots and demos are obsolete in terms of proving hacks because PunkBuster is so dated and hacks are now so sophisticated. Demos are only useful to get an idea of whether someone is using them, but you can generally make a well educated guess in open play.

I am fully aware all good players get accused of hacks. I have been accused on these forums myself and I must admit I was annoyed and nervous when I found out people such as the admins thought I cheated because I know I don’t and I didn’t want to end up being banned from a server I used to really enjoy playing.

Me being accused of hacks is completely different to these regular names that are accused. They are so much “better” than me, like many others who play the server I can only hold my own against them by using defensive tactics and I like to play aggressive. In 1v1 situations I generally have no chance other than sprint and crouch to avoid the headshots. Finally I’m positive that those who accused me are far inferior players to those who accuse this minority.

However in the end I take it as a compliment. I know for a fact that I could bring my config on a USB to anyone’s computer who plays RTCW and showcase the same skills that got me accused on many servers in the first place...and that’s good enough for me.

Furthermore If it were to take a legitimate player like myself to start a precedent and be permanently banned to kick start the making of a solution to the problem by those who care for the server, which doesn’t rely on PB, & to illustrate to you lot that an element of your servers population life span and certainly a huge element of the fun others have is currently being dictated by the hackers that occupy it...then I’ll do it...come up with a solution that doesn’t need PB anymore and still offers an honest multiplayer experience to those on the server, ban me and I’ll play Happy Penguin like you've suggested, I'll do it with a smile on my face knowing i atleast provoked some action to be taken.

Just don’t ignore the obvious problem anymore and turn into an Allstars. At least this way an opportunity is being presented to come up with a valid solution to deter the hackers on ECGN rather than being ignored for a few more years, at least there’s principle behind the methodology even if it means 1 or 2 innocents being banned, and I know I tried to do my bit to save the game from these hackers rather than wait for it to fade away. Seriously what have you got to lose other than the 4 or 5 players a large majority of your community constantly complain about anyway.

I know if there was a no proof needed policy then you would risk pushing the hack accusations onto people who are just very very good at the game once the current obvious minority were banned. But in order to prevent that it just takes a benchmark, common sense, experience and knowledge of the game in my honest opinion.

I simply am stumped as to why proof is needed for this minority when everyone knows PB is not going to catch them due to the fact it is seriously out of date. Some of them have probably been on the MBL before which further mocks the system. They are so obvious they cause serious balance issues every round they play and every time they join up (which is for long periods of time, hence why people leave), the stats illustrate it, the community constantly complain about them and finally they entice arguments and eventually player departure from the server for various reasons.

Whilst I appreciate the supportive reply Fless, I don’t agree you have to ban everyone or even go toward the white list idea in order to make it a better situation. I believe the solution lies somewhere in providing a little harsh but definitely needed common sense.

I believe ECGN’s server support and popularity means that definitely something can be done to make it a little better. Waiting for PB and leaving things as they are in my opinion is only blindsiding the fact there is a problem and that it does affect the population of the server temporarily and permanently.

If you’re going to make a post complaining about a hacker I don’t see why you lot bother anymore, although most of the server population may discreetly agree with you, it will just be ignored until PB eventually pulls their none existent thumb out and update the system, which will never happen for RTCW. There is absolutely nothing that will be done with regard to this subject by PB and it seems those who control the server.

As I said that’s just the harsh state of things, hacking has had a major influence in the decline of RTCW’s popularity since it was released, there’s not much that can be done about it now whilst providing factual support because PunkBuster gave up on it a long time ago. You can either find a more competitive game – let things be and turn a blind eye until the game dies out completely – or try and do something about it and preserve longevity as much as possible. Anyway that’s it from me; unsurprisingly I’m knackered after writing all that and haven’t really got anything else to add, thanks for reading.

[W0lfy Profile]

jesus dude are you writing a book?

i'm not even going to bother reading that

[method' Profile]

jesus dude are you writing a book?

i'm not even going to bother reading that

No, theres just an element of thought in the post. If your not going to read it or provide any insight yourself, I find you putting time into a response almost as idiotic as me writing that short novel.

[W0lfy Profile]

Sure, whatever helps you sleep at night

[cateye]

Let's say, just for the sake of discussion, that Remedy hacks, and Flessian doesn't. We could probably get most people on here to agree with that statement, regardless of whether it's correct or not -- and trust me, us Admins don't even agree on who hacks and who doesn't, any more than the rest of you do.

For most people who are just average players, like myself, it really doesn't matter: Both of them dominate me. Unless I'm really paying attention and time a grenade just right or sneak up behind one of them or something similar that will give me an edge, either will drop me every time.

And yet I play. Why? Because I have fun. Perhaps instead of all this drama of hacker or not, you should ask yourself the question whether you're having fun or not. If you are, play. If you aren't, don't. The reality is some probably hack, most don't, but skills run the gamut. In the end it won't matter since the game is not about everyone lining up to have a 1v1 with Remedy or Mofo or whomever. Maps are big, and the server still attracts 30 people at a time or more on a good night. I've gone a whole round when Remedy is on and not run into him once, choosing my paths carefully and still winning the round -- either by securing the objective, or just not skulling -- and isn't that, plus having fun, the whole point?

My point here is not to make excuses for those who do hack, but as Flessian, B, and Man At Arts said better than me, there's no simple answer to purging all of them. So ask yourself if you're having fun, and choose accordingly.