real life apache attack

[Agent-Commando]

Ugh... guys, come on, we were all brought here for a love of a game (Battlefield 1942, for most of us). Let's not forget our common interests, we're all different, you can't please everyone and everything.

And Edmund Burke once said "Older men declare war, but it is the youth that must fight and die."

Our leaders declare war, they don't fight in it so yes, I believe we should be proud of all our soldiers, because they are out there defending and fighting for all of our freedoms and liberties. I bet if you asked them all, they do not want to go to war, they all have families, friends, they knew the risks when they signed up. An order is an order.

As for Canada, our previous Prime Minister did not speak for the rest of the country, only what was in his and his own party's interests. I know more than a few Canadians who supported the U.S. Like me for instance.

But see, this is the reason why Political subjects on message forums always gets out of hand, it becomes too personal for some... let's not forget the fellowship we all share in our common interest of the game!

(hehe had to sneak that LOTR line in there, hehehe)

[PudriK Profile]

Bagginses, I must respectfully disagree with you. I think the media has done a shameful job of covering the destruction of this war. War is terrible, and although sometimes necessary, we should be aware of what we are sending our soldiers off to do.

There have been precious few photos or videos released that capture the horror that is war. We play BF 1942 because we like the action and competition, but think for a second that every time Bully strafes your sorry butt in the game, in real life you would experience what those three experienced. There are already many over there, on both sides, who have experienced it or worse.

I'm not saying they didn't deserve it... many others have argued that point already. We have chosen to send our forces out to do a job, and this is how it gets done. I am glad that it was released to the public, although I fear it will too easily be taken out of context, because it quite perfectly captures many aspects of modern warfare in one little clip--the imbalance, precision, horror, and devastating effectiveness.

[RCglider Profile]

IT'S THE SOLDIER


It's the soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us freedom of the
PRESS.

It's the soldier, not the poet,
Who has given us freedom of
SPEECH.

It's the soldier, not the campus
ORGANIZER,
Who has given us the freedom to
DEMONSTRATE

It's the soldier, not the lawyer,
Who has given us the right to a
FAIR TRIAL.
It's the soldier who salutes the flag,
Serves under the flag
And whose coffin is draped by the flag,
Who gives the protester the right to burn the flag.

[Colonel Ingus Profile]

Alrighty Chacal I can understand what you are aiming at.

I can gaurantee you 100% that it did not matter if those guys killed by friendly fire were Canadian, American, or Afghanis.

There is actually a military term for that called fracticide. That basically means a friendly fire kill. Unfortunately when a lot of people get together and start tossing around high explosives bad things like that happen.

All I am saying is that no one here in America celebrated when we accidently killed Canadian troops. Most of us were damn proud to have Canadians there alongside us.

We would have been tickled pink to have you in Iraq with us but you did not see "our" (notice its in quotes) wisdom in joining in that fight and good for you. I would lose a lot more respect for Canada for blindly following our lead than I would gain by having you tow a party rope.

I, and many others, have been there and you can ask any one of us we do our damndest to avoid things like that. I feel more guilt over the inadvertent deaths of those Canadian soldiers than I do over any amount of dead Iraqis.

You probably just touched a nerve by the way you said that but it really offended me as a proffesional military man and as an American.

[Colonel Ingus Profile]

Well said RCGlider!

and if I may add.

Its the soldier who gaurantees those rights, Not the Politicians, Not the ACLU, Not the Generals and Admirals, Not the EDF, Not the liberals or the conservatives, Not the Democrats or the Republicans, Not the media, Not the Internet, Not the left wing or right wing.

THE SOLDIER!

[hightimber Profile ICQ]

Originally posted by SGT DEVILDOG
I am truly glad that we do not have a LIB in power right now. Everytime I hear a liberal complain about causalties in Iraq I wish they would be forced to watch those 100's people jump out the towers to their deaths, or listen to the 911 calls that were being made that day. What about the whole middle east danceing in the street when they saw innocent non military people dying. Have we forgotten so soon?

Sadly, I think a large percentage of Americans have forgotten the horrors of that day.

For those of you that have served (ie. Fat Bastard, Colonel Ingus), I'd like a soldier's opinion on how you:

1) felt about pulling out of Somalia
2) would feel if you were on the ground in Iraq and we did the same. If you put a stop to the sacrifices are you not, in some regard, devaluing the lives of the ones who have already died for the cause?

[Bagginses]

Originally posted by PudriK
Bagginses, I must respectfully disagree with you. I think the media has done a shameful job of covering the destruction of this war. War is terrible, and although sometimes necessary, we should be aware of what we are sending our soldiers off to do.

There have been precious few photos or videos released that capture the horror that is war. We play BF 1942 because we like the action and competition, but think for a second that every time Bully strafes your sorry butt in the game, in real life you would experience what those three experienced. There are already many over there, on both sides, who have experienced it or worse.

I'm not saying they didn't deserve it... many others have argued that point already. We have chosen to send our forces out to do a job, and this is how it gets done. I am glad that it was released to the public, although I fear it will too easily be taken out of context, because it quite perfectly captures many aspects of modern warfare in one little clip--the imbalance, precision, horror, and devastating effectiveness.

Thanks for being respectful about it, I know it can always get out of hand but I'll respond with this: How come we're not shown more positive aspects of the war? I know the argument can always be made that "war is hell" and we shouldn't be sheltered from that. I full-heartedly agree that it is hell and I am fully sympathetic of our troops and what it is they're going through.

I don't understand, though, why our media has to spend half of the programs everynight describing in detail the horrible stuff that has happened in Iraq, and only brush over the positives. I have pretty much only witnessed two positive stories by the media that have had any substantial coverage on the mainstream, actually, I'll say three. The first was a photograph that was released near the beginning of the war showing a soldier running while he carried a hurt Iraqi child. Of course I found that to be an emotional photograph, but the media liked to present it as some photographer's "Iwo Jima" shot, if you know what I mean.

Secondly, there's Time naming our American troops as the "Persons of the Year" in response to the sacrifices they've made and all of the good things they have helped bring about in Iraq.

Thirdly, and I hesitate to include this, was the rescue of Jessica Lynch, and as much as I am thankful that she was rescued, and our troops never forgot her, and came through for her, our media (and government, too), couldn't just leave the story for what it was. Instead, the story was grossly exaggerated to create a false sense of pride in our country and our troops. I find that sad, that our government and media need to trick us in order for us to support our troops and to grab some more viewers.

I just wish that we could be shown more images of troops helping to clear out schools, and things of that sort, to improve the quality of life over there. Instead, our media thinks that no big. and exciting news stories have come out of Iraq since Saddam was caught, so they resort to showing videos of guys being blown to bits. I just wonder why that video is so much more important now, than the thousands of other "war is hell" moments from earlier in the conflict. Why does it need to be shown now? Why is that so important? These troops are doing their jobs. I got a much better idea of what a soldier's job entailed by watching the hordes of "embedded reporters" at the beginning of the conflict, than I did of a minute-long video of three Iraqi's dismembered. Oh well, I still think it's a sad attempt to boost ratings, but that's just me...

-Bagginses

[hightimber Profile ICQ]

Bag, I agree 100%. You know damn well that there are tons of good news stories to be told about what we're doing in Iraq but these apparently aren't newsworthy. The cynical part of me says that this is because journalists, at least those in charge, are widely liberal and they wan't to poison the war effort in order to hurt Bush's chances for re-election.

What's worse is that American media (ie. CNN, etc.) is seen globally and this slanted viewpoint is what the rest of the world believes is happening because that's all they see. In that regard what they are showing undoubtedly encourages more terrorism against our troops. It's not just a political game. Soldiers and innocent civilians lives are at stake as well.

[Sewer-Urchin]

Good job Bag and hightimber. I couldn't agree more about the lack of positive stories. And the timing and lack of details about the video reeks of a ratings boost.

[SGT DEVILDOG Profile]

[quote]Originally posted by hightimber
[B]Bag, I agree 100%. You know damn well that there are tons of good news stories to be told about what we're doing in Iraq but these apparently aren't newsworthy. The cynical part of me says that this is because journalists, at least those in charge, are widely liberal and they wan't to poison the war effort in order to hurt Bush's chances for re-election.
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Very good points indeed. I agree with both of you.

[Buliwyf Profile]

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[Fat Bastard]

Originally posted by hightimber


For those of you that have served (ie. Fat Bastard, Colonel Ingus), I'd like a soldier's opinion on how you:

1) felt about pulling out of Somalia
2) would feel if you were on the ground in Iraq and we did the same. If you put a stop to the sacrifices are you not, in some regard, devaluing the lives of the ones who have already died for the cause?

1) It was a grossly and poorly implemented operation which I'm glad we pulled out. Was a shame that it had to go on as long as it did. I could go on for days about it but that first sentence sums it up for the most part.

2) not sure what your referring to timber on this one. But if I was in a position to kill acouple people dealing arms or several hundred to save 1 innocent person I would gladly even if it would mean my end.


As for devaluing the cause whatever it may be, HELL NO it wouldn't be devaluing it. To continue the fight for those that had already died for the cause. I would consider it my honor and duty to those that served and had already given their lives to finish it to the end so there lives would not be in vain.

It's not a matter of what it is, so much as a matter of doing what you think is right.

P.S. i think I also took chacal's statements abit out of text but my view is anyone who loses their life while serving in there country's service and doing what they THEY THINK IS RIGHT whether it be american, british, candian, australian or whoever should not be an issue for someone else, who is not there to discuss!!!!!!!!! Every soldier knows the risks.

They should be honored for there scarifice to GOD & country. And should NOT have their death belittle by someone else who has different views on the issue which to me is an outrage and a disgrace to those that died and there families.

[hightimber Profile ICQ]

Originally posted by Fat Bastard
2) not sure what your referring to timber on this one. But if I was in a position to kill acouple people dealing arms or several hundred to save 1 innocent person I would gladly even if it would mean my end.

I worded my reply poorly and confused you. What I was trying to ask is:

If you were on-the-ground in Iraq and we decided to pull-out of Iraq before finishing our objectives, wouldn't that in some regard be devaluing the lives we'd already lost? Isn't the goal, of a truly free Iraq, worth risking more lives. By abandoning our goals, turning tail and running, isn't that disrespecting the lives of persons who've already died or been injured in this war?

Having been through this, I'm really interested to hear how you'd feel if you were stationed there today and this turn-of-events took place.

[CapriccioSCOURG]

I didn't come here to fight. Maybe I like staying in my "corner" and "crying". I'm a pussy. . . so what? That doesn't mean I hate you! And it doesn't mean I don't not respect stuff that people do for me.

I didn't ask for hatred or anger, but I understand why you might be upset, FatBastard especially. Just as you didn't ask for my insolence, and just as I'm sure you can understand why I'd be upset about, me in white suburbia, looking at those images of humans dieing. It's not an everday thing, and maybe I'm a lesser person for that. So I'm a sheep, and I'm happy to be one, and I'm happy there are sheepdogs, and even wolves (I don't know what I mean by that, exactly).

And I'm not a big fan of the media either. They get the facts so wrong most of the time, and they act like they can do anything they want for the story. Yeah, I love that we have free press and can talk about anything we want in public. But some values they have are just silly. And they never focus equally on all the important stories. Yeah, Iraq got thousands and thousands of hours of coverage from the big networks last year, which it deserved. And I know there are only so many hours, but AIDS and Global Warming and other serious problems got about a combined total of an hour or so of airtime.

So, we agree to disagree. Everyone's happy now? Good, time for some more Battlefield.

[PudriK Profile]

Bagginsess, I agree with you in this regard as well. The media has done a piss-poor job positive and negative.

In fact, despite its "liberal bias," I have found NPR's All Things Considered to be very informative in covering the positive efforts and results that are being made in Iraq. For what its worth, you get much more in-depth, well-rounded, and considered news from public radio, although there is some bias, it always makes me wonder why that format is not commercially successful.

For example, a ways back they did an interesting piece about the challenges contractors were facing in rebuilding the Iraqi sewage system. They talked about the problems with looting, the poor maintenance during the embargo/Saddam era, and security, as well as the squalid conditions that preceeded the war (one of Saddam's methods for keeping the Shiites down was to turn off their sewage services). The overall coverage gave the impression of Contractors working very hard in tough circumstances, but making progress.

But it seems the commercial media thinks the only stories that will sell advertising are soldiers and Iraqis dying, and Iraqi opinion polls and demonstrations. There is little coverage of the wounded or the progress that is being made.