The ethanol scam and reality

[RCglider Profile]

Originally posted by jfmaday
I have done some research of my own on ethanol and its use as a fuel, and from what I gathered if it were implemented it would LOWER the price of gas on an average of about 20 cents per gallon. Thats assuming a mixture of like 15% Ethanol to 85% Gasoline. Ethanol as you know comes from corn and the USA grows the most of corn at least to the best of my knowledge. Therefore allowing us the possibility to be self sufficient when it comes to fuel. Not only that Ethanol, when created and manufactured, is more efficient. Going by my research for every unit of energy it takes manufacture Ethanol we get a return of 1.26-1.28 (i think) units of energy. Therefore making it far more efficient to manfacture and use.

Auto manufacturers are already starting to produce cars that are ready to run on pure Ethanol fuel. Which is why I think that may be the real reason why gas is so expensive at the moment... cuz they know that in the coming years Ethanol will become more popular and therefore the demand for actual gas will gradually go down, and then it won't be great for investors to invest in Oil companies anymore. So they are bascially bleeding us dry of our money now to help pay for their early retirement when gas becomes the secondary fuel in the near future years.

Ethanol will just be all around better because we can produce it and we don't need to pay other countries to import to corn to make it. Although corn is only 1 source for Ethanol, because I do believe they keep finding more and more things they can use to produce Ethanol.

The only reason it appears that ethanol would lower the price of gas at the pump is because corn and ethanol are heavily subsidized. Also, fuel mileage goes down when blending alcohol with gasoline. The more added, the worse the efficiency.

I burn corn for heat. As long as taxpayers are willing to pay for it, I'm willing to save a lot of money. Our highest monthly heating bill (February) was $70. Thanks!

I too have researched the use of ethanol, but came to a completely different conclusion than yours a long time ago. I don't know where you got those numbers, but it's very deceptive. Talk to farmers and ask them what they think about this whole ethanol scam. Corn produces about 2/3 the energy of gasoline and having raced cars, the entire fuel system needed modifying to accompany alcohol; fuel pumps, carburetor and fuel lines. This was due to the corrosive nature of alcohol, plus it required about twice the fuel as racing gas. At that time alcohol was about $1.00/gal vs $4/gal for VP racing gas.

Despite what many people believe, there is actually a net loss in energy producing corn derived ethanol; somewhere around 20,000 btu per gallon. Alcohol cannot be made using alcohol. It takes a whole lot of petroleum to produce 1 gallon of alcohol. The reason farmers grow corn is simple: they are guaranteed a price by the government even if the crop fails. Why risk growing other crops? Plowing the fields, fertilizers, pesiticides, harvesting, storing.....and that's before conversion. Speaking of fertilizers and pesticides, consider the ground pollution produced from growing corn. For those "environmentalists" out there, that's not a good thing. So, upon further investigation, corn is really not all that environmentally friendly now is it? Alcohol cannot be stored in conventional tanks or transported via pipeline, so must use trucks with stainless tanks further increasing costs.

Then there's the practical aspect to all this. Even if we broke even on the production costs, it is virtually impossible to grow enough corn to make even a dent in energy demands. We would need to convert nearly every acre of land into growing corn. And since corn is a major food source both for people and livestock, are we willing to pay astronomical costs for food all for the phony notion we'd be less reliant on foreign oil? But that's the whole point! Ethanol from corn does NOT reduce dependency on petroleum, it increases it. Think about it. If relying on foreign oil is bad, wait until we have to rely on foreign food imports. As more and more ethanol is produced from corn, the higher the cost will be for corn itself which will cause higher prices in every sector of the economy. Even if we increased alcohol production by 1000% it would only account for 1 percent of energy consumption.

Brazil is used as an example of ethanol. First of all, Brazil grows sugar cane which yields a much higher alcohol content than corn, is cheaper to grow and convert to alcohol. Our climate is not condusive to growing sugar cane. Even Florida is considered marginal at best. It's simply just not feasible to compete with Brazil. To further protect U.S. farmers, the U.S. has tariffs on imported alcohol from Brazil, so they simply bypass direct importation by shipping to South American countries first not bound by tariffs. Also, for all the talk of how clean alcohol is to burn, Brazil has had a severe pollution problem for many years because of their farming methods, although they are trying to improve.

Now on to evil "Big Oil". Much fanfare is given to Exxon-Mobile making huge profits. So? What are they supposed to do, refuse profits just to be nice guys? Their profit margins are in line with other industries, and less than others. The fact is consumption (due to an expanding economy) has risen and the supply has not kept up with demand. China and India is one reason for this. The real profiteer is the federal government, check it out for yourselves. I get angry every time I fill up, but keep reminding myself to think with my head instead of emotions. Warnings of rising oil prices have been forthcoming for years, and it's not because we are running out of oil or a conspiracy by Exxon et al. Our land is locked from drilling in 48 states, not to mention offshore drilling......"not in my backyard". We haven't built a new refinery in over 30 years. Then there's all the custom blends of gasoline that creates distribution problems further increasing costs. Look at California's ludicrous energy policies. There is an abundant amount of oil right here in North America. Until the dumass gutless politicians stop caving to the enviro nuts, we will always be at the mercy of foreign oil and can expect these spikes. Further, oil is a world market. If I recall, Exxon etc. accounts for only about 5% of actual oil production; it's not much in the scheme of things. BTW, unless there's a huge supply disruption in the world (Iran etc.), an oil market crash is coming and it will dwarf the dotcom in the 90's. Much of the high oil prices we see today is by speculators, many will lose money.

Has anyone ever considered "Big Ag"? ADM (Archers Daniel Midland) produces 70% of the ethanol in the U.S., all on the backs of taxpayers. Of course they defend ethanol......we are paying for it, somewhere in the neighborhood of 40% of their profits. Take away the subsidies and the ethanol industry would die in a week. People always talk about how politicians have Big Oil in their back pockets....HA! If they did, we'd have refineries and oil fields popping up all over.

It is true there are other forms of "biomass". One is switchgrass. Much more efficient than corn, but the same problem is obvious: the land mass required to produce enough to show up on the radar is simply not practical. It just isn't. I think for individuals heating their homes, biomass is a good thing.....I do it myself. However, to adopt it as a national energy policy is living in a fantasy world. For those of us currently heating our homes with corn etc., we will see increased costs next winter and overall our energy needs as a country will not improve one bit.

For those using biodiesel, you too are being subsidized. The used vegetable oil you get from restaraunts etc. is made from corn. Right now it's cheap, but in time you will not be saving much if any should municipalities implement usage for their fleets. I'd do it too if I had a diesel, but keep it quiet.

I am all for alternative energy sources, but the fact remains OIL is the fuel that runs the engine of our economy and will be for many years. Nearly every single consumer product in our country (or other countries for that matter) relies on petroleum in one form or another. Food, medicine, clothing, energy, manufacturing....you name it. Ethanol has very limited uses. The so-called hydrogen economy is a pipedream, and the funny part is it uses petroleum. Sorry, getting free energy from water (Joe Cells etc.) still belongs in the science fiction section of the newspaper. The only thing I'll say positive about hydrogen is you can increase fuel mileage substantially building a hydrogen electrolyzer and modifying the engine's timing and emissions. I'm building a second one now. Check out http://www.hydrogen-boost.com Mine is not his design, but I did get some good information from him. Another is http://www.eagle-research.com/. George Wiseman has some out-in-left-field claims, but also has some good practical applications.

I have a Popular Science magazine from 1979. It had an article about converting coal to gasoline. At the time I think gas prices were about $.70/gal, but the cost for coal gasoline was over $.90, making it economically uncompetitive at the time. Why hasn't that been an issue now? One problem is Clinton locked the largest discovered clean coal reserves on earth by issuing an executive order proclaiming several million acres of desert a "national park".....refer to James Riati.

Then there's the hybrids....don't even get me started on those.

Ethanol is the biggest ponzi scheme scam ever perpetrated on the American public. Don't fall for it.

[Bromsin Profile]

Everything I have read online says that Ethanol is more expensive than gasoline when used separate from each other. It could be that it would only be more expensive for a while, until the companies can fully switch over to ethanol. If all refineries could create ethanol then it would be cheaper than gas, unfortunately that woudlnt be for a long time assuming they decide to switch totally.

[KDawg07 Profile]

Even if it's cheaper than gas it still takes a whole lot more of it to produce the same power. It's like having a 50 gallon tank instead of a 15, pay more now or pay more often. It all boils down to demand and supply.

[Buliwyf Profile]

cant we figure out a way to burn all the trash in the world?

[Wesley Profile YIM]

Originally posted by Buliwyf
cant we figure out a way to burn all the trash in the world?

Maybe put some lighter fluid on it and light it on fire? any other questions?

[Twister026 Profile Website]

thank god I don't have to deal with gas at this age

[Hunter/Killer Profile]

Originally posted by Wesley
Maybe put some lighter fluid on it and light it on fire? any other questions?

LOL


RC
What are your thoughts on geothermal heat for homes?

I have been looking at it and think it sounds great but the costs are very high to convert an existing home.

Hunter

[Chacal Profile Website]

All these alternate solutions are just a way to avoid the unpleasant truth that we use too much energy. We don't really need it, we just want it and won't change our habits.

[PraiseA||ah Profile]

Originally posted by Chacal
All these alternate solutions are just a way to avoid the unpleasant truth that we use too much energy. We don't really need it, we just want it and won't change our habits.

I agree completely.

[CreepingCharlie Profile]

That hydrogen boost thing sounds really cool.

[Gen. Ouch Profile Website]

the problem with geothermal heat is that you have to have a vent near where you live for it to work. i know up here where i am there are none. if you had a vent down the street it would be great but if you had to pipe the steam over a greater distance it wouldn't be all that hot of an idea.

[CodeRed68 Profile]

Originally posted by Gen. Ouch
the problem with geothermal heat is that you have to have a vent near where you live for it to work. i know up here where i am there are none. if you had a vent down the street it would be great but if you had to pipe the steam over a greater distance it wouldn't be all that hot of an idea.

"it wouldn't be all that hot of an idea"

oooh, that was bad.
<the crowd groans>

[Chacal Profile Website]

*ponders banning Gen. Ouch from the forums

[Hunter/Killer Profile]

Originally posted by Gen. Ouch
the problem with geothermal heat is that you have to have a vent near where you live for it to work. i know up here where i am there are none. if you had a vent down the street it would be great but if you had to pipe the steam over a greater distance it wouldn't be all that hot of an idea.

not true.

Read this, it works off of the heat in the ground not vent heat.
http://www.alliantenergygeothermal.com/stellent2/groups/public/documents/pub/geo_wha_001202.hcsp#P-4_0

[[ecgn] btt Profile]

Originally posted by Chacal
All these alternate solutions are just a way to avoid the unpleasant truth that we use too much energy. We don't really need it, we just want it and won't change our habits.

The only reason "using to much energy" is such a problem is because of the source of the energy. How can we use too much of everything? Everything is energy, we just have to get it from a better source.