Radical Islam and what they really want.

by **Colonel Ingus** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 6:51 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/26/international/europe/26EURO.html?hp

With enemies such as this there is no appeasement, no "getting along", and no peaceful coexistence.

And this type of attitude is not something that was caused by our actions. This is a fundamental truth about a base group of hardcore Islam. It has always been this way with them.

These are the ones who 1200 years ago would destroy a nation and offer the survivors "Islam or the Sword".

The overly sensitive liberal type is always willing to find fault in anything we do. You can piss and moan and feel bad about all kinds of things but they will have this attitude with or without your self inflicted guilt.

Are we perfect? Is our system perfect? Have we done things wrong? We all know the answers to those questions. The difference being our world view has a place for others and theirs does not.

What future do you prefer?

by **smithpa68** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 6:56 pm

Hear hear Ingus !!! I prefer ours.

by **SavageParrot** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 7:00 pm

Originally posted by Colonel Ingus
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/26/international/europe/26EURO.html?hp

These are the ones who 1200 years ago would destroy a nation and offer the survivors "Islam or the Sword".

Bearing in mind western european behavior in the crusades I can't even believe that you would bring this up and think it was a persuasive argument. It's not just that we were up to the same stuff (Richard I had about 30,000 people put to the sword in a day) it's that they were in fact more tolerant than us take the example of moorish Spain.

Dodgy use of history aside You are right about the no compromise bit though, the word is alien to the most radical islamic sects so there would be no point making moves to even try.

by **Colonel Ingus** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 7:09 pm

Way to go Savage!

You just proved my whole point about having to feel angst about things!

The muslims who were shouting "Islam or the Sword" weren't doing it because they opposed the Crusade. They were doing it long before the crusades began. Or do you only study western history?

The crusades gave them an excuse to kill people they had never tried to subjugate before.

by **SavageParrot** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 7:30 pm

Wow what an enlightened view. 1200 years ago the Norwegians were raping and pillaging their way around europe does that mean we should go to war against Norway now. The actions of people 1200 years ago is not a reliable guide to what they are like now so you shouldn't use it as if it is. I you want to make a point use information that is relevant like recent terrorism not bastardised and incorrect history. The Islamic conquest of Africa and the middle east was not the violent and brutal subjugation you make it out to be and the Crusades were not a welcome excuse to kill more people. Frankly the idea which you seem to be trying to convey, that all islamic peoples are bloodthirty savages and always have been, is not borne up by the facts. At the time of the crusades the Islamic middle east was superior in mathemathics, sanitation, education (all incongruous with the kind of extremism you portray) and in most fields to their european counterparts not the other way round and far from brutally over running the byzantine empire was embroiled in tit for tat warfare, much the same as had been going on between persia and the mediterranean powers for at least a millenia and indeed nearer 2 milenia before Islam even appeared.

As for whether I have studied anything but western history the answer is not not in any particular depth but the crusades were part of my degree course so I know a little about the subject and have never in all my studies of his noticed any savagery in the followers of islam than in those of any of the other religions, though this remains open to be disproved

by **Colonel Ingus** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 12:11 am

Exactly were did I say they were savages? or even implied they practiced savagery? And I wasn't even attempting to imply that ALL Islam is that way. I think I clearly stated that there is a sect of that populace that believes that way and has ALWAYS believed that way.

You make an interesting point in comparitive civilizations but they both paled in comparison with the Chinese culture and neither Occidental nor Arabian culture was at the level of the Roman Empire which was basically gone in 600 AD.

Islam or the sword was a credo long before the crusades. And if you had cared to read that article you would see it still is today.

Allow me to quote myself here and see how it applies to what you are saying

The overly sensitive liberal type is always willing to find fault in anything we do. You can piss and moan and feel bad about all kinds of things but they will have this attitude with or without your self inflicted guilt.

Are we perfect? Is our system perfect? Have we done things wrong? We all know the answers to those questions. The difference being our world view has a place for others and theirs does not.

When was the last time some Scandavian approached you and asked for Danegeld?

by **SavageParrot** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 3:46 am

Originally posted by Colonel Ingus
When was the last time some Scandavian approached you and asked for Danegeld?

Have you seen the price of beer in Scandinavia?

by **Murgatroyd** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 8:40 am

You know, I think more than I should on this subject.

I've done my homework, I've visited the websites, read the propaganda (both sides), have searched (somewhat in vein) for a neutral source of information.

Here's what I've found. Islam has been the latest victim of the twisting of a religion for use in kleptocratic policy. I do not blame Muslims, I do not blame Islam. I am not afraid of Muslims, nor am I afraid of Islam. In fact, the other day I went shopping with my Muslim friend, and I don't think she tried to kill me.

It's the leaders. I look at the situation in the milieu of a cult movement. These people (mostly kids) are being influenced by radical leaders who are promising these guys life after death in paradise if they die to provide them (the leaders) with more power, in the name of Islam of course. Take al-Sadr for instance. He could care less about the Iraqi people, Islam, or the US occupation. He just sees a window in which he can make a grab for power, and he's perverting his religion to attain his goals.

It's old news. It's been done countless times throughout history. There are flare-ups, people scour their holy texts for implements of war, and go to war seeking power in the name of their religion. Nowadays, the latest (and largest) victim is Islam.

I must admit, though, that there seems to be another unifying factor in this latest movement - and that is hatred of America.

This has been illustrated, recently, when the OIC (Organization of Islamic Countries) called an "emergency" meeting to discuss the US occupation of Iraq. All well and good, I think that they should be concerned, but, there has been ethnic cleansing of Muslims occuring in Sudan, and they didn't even bring it up!!! Wow! That was a real eye-opener. They're more concerned about Iraq, because America is involved, than genocide occuring (against Muslims) in a neighboring country!

So, why do they hate America so much? America's support of Israel? I'm sure that's a big part of it. I don't understand why we continually, unequivocally, seemingly unconditionally support Israel, when they have balked at THREE UN resolutions stating that they have to repatriate the refugee Palistinians living in (get this) CAMPS! Israel is forcing people to live in camps - based on ethnicity! And we say this is okay!! Israel also has various covert WMD programs, we know about it, Vanunu told us about it (and they jailed him for it), but we hold a double standard. We say it's okay that they have them, condemn other allies (India) for the development, and invade and sanction "rogue" states for their programs. Not surprisingly, the rest of the world notices this!

Ok, so we've established the motives. Kleptocracy, and a unifying hatred of America. So, now what? How do we stop it?

The Vikings were stopped by Christianity - it replaced their war-like religion and pacified them as a culture. The crusades were ended by in-fighting, and a strong leader (Luther) emerging and stating that it was a sin to wage war on the Turks.

I believe that they can be beaten idealogically. Obviously, there is an infrastructure, of which, the members are interested in securing themselves more power. It would be easy to create in-fighitng, however, currently, they are unified in the face of a common enemy (America).

That's the lynchpin in their organization. That is their keystone. So, how do we remedy that? I don't know - I don't have the answer to that question.

They don't believe a word we say, if we give them aid, they take it, say "Thank you", and then call us suckers when we're not around. It is a complex problem, and I'd be interested in any possible solutions others have thought of.

by **Major SONAR** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 11:56 am

By Murgatroyd

They don't believe a word we say, if we give them aid, they take it, say "Thank you", and then call us suckers when we're not around. It is a complex problem, and I'd be interested in any possible solutions others have thought of.

Kill them before they kill us??

j/k

I don't thin there will ever be a solution. Man has been killing man since the begining of time.

by **RCglider** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 12:30 pm

Originally posted by Murgatroyd
You know, I think more than I should on this subject.

I've done my homework, I've visited the websites, read the propaganda (both sides), have searched (somewhat in vein) for a neutral source of information.

Here's what I've found. Islam has been the latest victim of the twisting of a religion for use in kleptocratic policy. I do not blame Muslims, I do not blame Islam. I am not afraid of Muslims, nor am I afraid of Islam. In fact, the other day I went shopping with my Muslim friend, and I don't think she tried to kill me.

It's the leaders. I look at the situation in the milieu of a cult movement. These people (mostly kids) are being influenced by radical leaders who are promising these guys life after death in paradise if they die to provide them (the leaders) with more power, in the name of Islam of course. Take al-Sadr for instance. He could care less about the Iraqi people, Islam, or the US occupation. He just sees a window in which he can make a grab for power, and he's perverting his religion to attain his goals.

It's old news. It's been done countless times throughout history. There are flare-ups, people scour their holy texts for implements of war, and go to war seeking power in the name of their religion. Nowadays, the latest (and largest) victim is Islam.

I must admit, though, that there seems to be another unifying factor in this latest movement - and that is hatred of America.

This has been illustrated, recently, when the OIC (Organization of Islamic Countries) called an "emergency" meeting to discuss the US occupation of Iraq. All well and good, I think that they should be concerned, but, [b]there has been ethnic cleansing of Muslims occuring in Sudan, and they didn't even bring it up!!! Wow! That was a real eye-opener. They're more concerned about Iraq, because America is involved, than genocide occuring (against Muslims) in a neighboring country!

So, why do they hate America so much? America's support of Israel? I'm sure that's a big part of it. I don't understand why we continually, unequivocally, seemingly unconditionally support Israel, when they have balked at THREE UN resolutions stating that they have to repatriate the refugee Palistinians living in (get this) CAMPS! Israel is forcing people to live in camps - based on ethnicity! And we say this is okay!! Israel also has various covert WMD programs, we know about it, Vanunu told us about it (and they jailed him for it), but we hold a double standard. We say it's okay that they have them, condemn other allies (India) for the development, and invade and sanction "rogue" states for their programs. Not surprisingly, the rest of the world notices this!

Ok, so we've established the motives. Kleptocracy, and a unifying hatred of America. So, now what? How do we stop it?

The Vikings were stopped by Christianity - it replaced their war-like religion and pacified them as a culture. The crusades were ended by in-fighting, and a strong leader (Luther) emerging and stating that it was a sin to wage war on the Turks.

I believe that they can be beaten idealogically. Obviously, there is an infrastructure, of which, the members are interested in securing themselves more power. It would be easy to create in-fighitng, however, currently, they are unified in the face of a common enemy (America).

That's the lynchpin in their organization. That is their keystone. So, how do we remedy that? I don't know - I don't have the answer to that question.

They don't believe a word we say, if we give them aid, they take it, say "Thank you", and then call us suckers when we're not around. It is a complex problem, and I'd be interested in any possible solutions others have thought of. [/B]

There is no such thing as a "Palestinian" throughout history. May I suggest also that you research further into the history of how the "Palestinians" came to exist where they are now? I'll let you do it.

Go to any Arab country and see how many Jews live there and compare to how many Arabs co-exist in Israel. I remember well Yasser Arafat in the 1970's perfecting the art of blowing up school buses full of kids. Yet he's the annointed leader of the Palestinians to whom we've given billions of dollars for food, but is used for buying arms and explosives. He doesn't want a Palestinian state, he wants dead Jews and no nation of Israel.

Israel is but a small dot in the whole region. The 6 Day War in 1967 and Yom Kippur in 1973 were the Arabs attempt at the total annihilation of Israel. Israel kicked their butts and captured land. Too bad, that's war.

How do you defeat a people that teaches their children from birth to hate and kill Infidels, that strapping on explosives and blowing themselves up brings reward in the after-life and honor to their family?

http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/palestine.htm

by **SavageParrot** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 1:17 pm

Lets not forget that the Zionists are an extreme religious group as well. Still the whole thing is really the English fault as we, at different times, promised the middle east to virtually anyone and everyone who asked and then double crossed them all and gave the Zionists Israel, oops our bad!

Before you get carried away with how poor little Isral has been bullied by it's neighbours I would like to point that they have waged wars, other than the 6 days war, of their own volition to expand their country and yet have never been checked by America Like the Iraqi's, North Koreans or anyone else not covered by Amerca's post holocaust guilt. Does Lebanon ring any bells?

In my opinion all religion is FUBAR I don't believ in any god but if I did I am damn sure he/she wouldn't be the type to want continual bloodshed in his name. I say ban all religion, cos the good they do is far outweighed by the ill.

by **Colonel Ingus** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 1:45 pm

Savage there is nothing wrong with understanding how situations came to be but you sound like you are trying to excuse their actions by pointing out every little thing we have ever done wrong.

That kind of attitude is exactly what I was talking about in my original statement. Where in the hell do you get America's post holocaust guilt? And what the hell does that have to do with Korea? Check me here but I am not aware of any Jewish population in Korea. Tweren't a whole lot of Koreans in the concentration camps. Or Viet Nam for that matter. Those wars were to curb the spread of communism and nothing else.

Lebanon does ring a bell. I seem to remember 286 American marines getting killed in their barracks by radical Islamic fundamentalists when they were there as Peacekeepers. Protecting many different factions including Muslims, Jews, and Christians.

And Murg it isn't just because we are Americans. They did the same to the Russians. They did the same to the British. They did the same to enumerable groups throughout history. Here's a little link for you with an older story. It ties in very well with you comment about taking aid and being thankless.

http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/comment/surafend.htm

This was point exactly about the skewiing of religon for power hungry people. The only difference is there has always been an element of that to Islam. It comes and goes in other religions but there has always been a sect of it in Islamic culture. Hell if you interpret it correctly its written right into the Koran.

by **Murgatroyd** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 2:36 pm

RC - I never attempted to justify the cause of the Palestinians, but rather pointed out the fact that Israel has had three UN resolutions stating that they must repatriate the refugees, and have balked at all of them, yet Hussein ignores one, and we invade.

I just don't think our unconditional support of Israel is warranted. They scoff at international law, and they barely even listen to what we have to tell them. I'm not saying Israel doesn't have the right to exist either, but that we have to examine what our allies are doing before we reaffirm our support.

I realize that the arab claims are pretty much baseless. Not to mention, that since the creation of Israel and the "diaspora" of the Palestinians, to have been one of those arabs uprooted (and remembered it), you'd have to be pushing about 80 years old now. I'm not in favor of either side in that equation. It's just that Israel has policies and performs actions which I don't agree with, and if you look at our policy towards Israel and other countries that do similar things, it's very obvious that we're playing favorites, and our favorite is Israel.

I don't think it's post-holocaust guilt, either. I don't know what it is, frankly, but I hardly think that it has anything to do with the holocaust. Especially considering that the mandate to form Israel was begun way before WWII even began.

This is our new "cold war", though it's very hot right now.

by **-HaVoC-** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 2:39 pm

Hussein ignored about 18 UN resolutions.

by **-HaVoC-** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 2:45 pm

Hey and on second thought the Palestinians have walked away from the opportunity's to end the conflict also. There will be no peace. Both want the other completely gone from the region.

And on a third note there was never a Palestinian state was there? I mean what they hell are they claiming they were removed from? There all basically Jordanian.

Radical Islam and what they really want.

Radical Islam and what they really want.

Re: Radical Islam and what they really want.

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