Wed May 12, 2004 1:57 pm
Originally posted by Sidekick Floppy
There is no proof Iraq had ties with Al Quaida when Saddam was president. So there is no proof of a link that ties 9/11 to Iraq.
• In October, Lawrence Foley, an official with the U.S. Agency for International Development, was gunned down in Amman, Jordan. "The captured assassin says his cell received money and weapons from Zarqawi for that murder, " Powell said. An associate of the gunman escaped to Iraq, he added.
• Last month, British police uncovered a terrorist plot to produce ricin, a deadly toxin, and Powell said the thwarted attack was linked to Zarqawi's group. Several Western intelligence agencies have said the planned attack has been tied to training provided by Zarqawi.
• At least 116 operatives connected to Zarqawi's network have been arrested in France, Britain, Spain and Italy. The network was also planning attacks in Germany and Russia, Powell said.
• At least nine North African extremists traveled to Europe in 2001 to conduct explosive and poison attacks, an al Qaeda detainee who trained under Zarqawi has told intelligence agents.
• Last year, two suspected al Qaeda operatives linked to associates of Zarqawi's Baghdad cell, including one who was trained in the use of cyanide, were arrested as they crossed the border from Iraq into Saudi Arabia.
Members of al Qaeda and Iraqi intelligence "have met at least eight times at very senior levels since the early 1990s," Powell said. In 1996, bin Laden met with a senior Iraqi intelligence official in Sudan, and later that year had a meeting with the director of Iraq's intelligence service, he said.
Powell also said a senior al Qaeda member has reported that Saddam was more willing to assist al Qaeda after the bombings of U.S. embassies in Africa in 1998 and was impressed by the attack on the USS Cole in 2000.
According to Powell, a senior al Qaeda operative, now being detained, said that a terrorist operative was sent to Iraq several times between 1997 and 2000 for help in acquiring poisons and chemical weapons. He was dispatched after bin Laden concluded that al Qaeda labs in Afghanistan were not capable of manufacturing such materials, Powell said.
Also, said Powell, a senior Iraqi defector, one of Saddam's former European intelligence chiefs, said Iraqi agents were sent to Afghanistan in the mid-1990s to train al Qaeda members in document forgery.
Wed May 12, 2004 2:15 pm
Originally posted by RCglider
These same human debri that murdered Nick Berg are the same ones "tortured" in the prisons.
They are terrorists, less than human in my view, and would have no hesitation repeating their actions to everyone on this forum, your mothers, fathers, children, brothers and sisters. Nick Berg is not the first, remember Daniel Pearl?
Some of the prisoners are terrorist, but some are just soldiers. People that signed up to protect their country.
Also, even if they are all evil, what was done to them just brings us one step closer to being like them.
I found a good story about an american that "endured 33 days of torture at the hands of Iraqis during the Persian Gulf War".
Story
When he heard the allegations and saw photographs of American soldiers abusing Iraqi POWs, Storr was filled with shame and empathy.
"For those of us that have been there, I just felt horrible for those guys," Storr said of the prisoners.
Wed May 12, 2004 2:19 pm
Originally posted by ||ASS||Mortimer
• In October, Lawrence Foley, an official with the U.S. Agency for International Development, was gunned down in Amman, Jordan. "The captured assassin says his cell received money and weapons from Zarqawi for that murder, " Powell said. An associate of the gunman escaped to Iraq, he added.
• Last month, British police uncovered a terrorist plot to produce ricin, a deadly toxin, and Powell said the thwarted attack was linked to Zarqawi's group. Several Western intelligence agencies have said the planned attack has been tied to training provided by Zarqawi.
• At least 116 operatives connected to Zarqawi's network have been arrested in France, Britain, Spain and Italy. The network was also planning attacks in Germany and Russia, Powell said.
• At least nine North African extremists traveled to Europe in 2001 to conduct explosive and poison attacks, an al Qaeda detainee who trained under Zarqawi has told intelligence agents.
• Last year, two suspected al Qaeda operatives linked to associates of Zarqawi's Baghdad cell, including one who was trained in the use of cyanide, were arrested as they crossed the border from Iraq into Saudi Arabia.
Members of al Qaeda and Iraqi intelligence "have met at least eight times at very senior levels since the early 1990s," Powell said. In 1996, bin Laden met with a senior Iraqi intelligence official in Sudan, and later that year had a meeting with the director of Iraq's intelligence service, he said.
Powell also said a senior al Qaeda member has reported that Saddam was more willing to assist al Qaeda after the bombings of U.S. embassies in Africa in 1998 and was impressed by the attack on the USS Cole in 2000.
According to Powell, a senior al Qaeda operative, now being detained, said that a terrorist operative was sent to Iraq several times between 1997 and 2000 for help in acquiring poisons and chemical weapons. He was dispatched after bin Laden concluded that al Qaeda labs in Afghanistan were not capable of manufacturing such materials, Powell said.
Also, said Powell, a senior Iraqi defector, one of Saddam's former European intelligence chiefs, said Iraqi agents were sent to Afghanistan in the mid-1990s to train al Qaeda members in document forgery.
Here is some linkage that denies any Al Quaida/Iraq links.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/alqaida/story/0,12469,944752,00.html
http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030723-064812-9491r
Personally I am not really convinced of any proof from the internet unless you add the site links for credebility.
Wed May 12, 2004 2:25 pm
It is not my concern to prove anything to you. I merely provided evidence that you requested.
Whether you believe it or not, is up to you.
Whether you believe it or not, is up to you.
Wed May 12, 2004 2:25 pm
My point is that I cannot understand what kind of hatred, fear or ideological/religious belief makes humans treat other humans with such abandonment of the value of another human life.
I am not psycho fanatic or (I hope) naive person without worldly experience, but I guess that what I have such trouble understanding is how someone can become so callous towards another person, of any nationality, to be as inhumane towards them as we are witness on an all too-often basis.
Whether it is child molestors, abusers and rapists, religious zealots who plant bombs, terrorists who kill innocent people or "soldiers" who abuse each other in the most unthinkable ways, I just cannot fathom what makes somebody act this way.
Anyway, this thread is interesting to see others' opinions, but it is also disheartening to someone like me who hopes that it is possible to make the world a better place for anyone and everyone. And before I get flamed, I am a realist, but an optimist as well...
I am not psycho fanatic or (I hope) naive person without worldly experience, but I guess that what I have such trouble understanding is how someone can become so callous towards another person, of any nationality, to be as inhumane towards them as we are witness on an all too-often basis.
Whether it is child molestors, abusers and rapists, religious zealots who plant bombs, terrorists who kill innocent people or "soldiers" who abuse each other in the most unthinkable ways, I just cannot fathom what makes somebody act this way.
Anyway, this thread is interesting to see others' opinions, but it is also disheartening to someone like me who hopes that it is possible to make the world a better place for anyone and everyone. And before I get flamed, I am a realist, but an optimist as well...
Wed May 12, 2004 2:32 pm
Originally posted by MajorFatty
Maybe I'm misinformed. Can someone please explain to me what 9/11 has to do with the war in Iraq?
Not to get off topic, but I don't understand what's going on anymore.
Um, gosh, I guess nothing - Unless you consider the fact that 9/11 terrorists were a product of Saudi/Wahabi islamofascisim. A cancer that infects most of the Arab world. Either that, or despotic ruler (Saddam), Syria's Assad, or the Iranian Ayatollahs that keep a deathgrip around the throats of their population in an effort to stop them from embracing freedom, and further, funds and encourages terrorism?
To conduct a war on terror, you must fight against all fronts. In an effort to turn the tide of islamofascisim, the Arab world needs to have a democratic example, or at least see the benefits of democracy. It is no doubt a rough and at times bloody proposition. Consider the insurgents pouring into Iraq from Syria, Lebanon, Iran and Jordan. Instead of fighting the coalition, shouldn’t they have risen up against the likes of Saddam and his ilk? After all, they do contend that they want peace and freedom for their Muslim/Arab brothers. Oh, and to kill all infidels.
Why Iraq? Well, for starters not only was Iraq in violation of the CEASE FIRE agreement from the first gulf war, but it had also been firing on coalition aircraft patrolling the no-fly zones, in violation of 17 UN resolutions, and provided safe harbor to a harmless little chap named Abu Nidal. I'll not mention the rampant bribery of the UN oil for food scandal, or the terrorist training camps with 727 mock-ups. I'll even stop short of Saddam's funding, nay REWARDING the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. Additionally, the Iraqi war was one that we could and did win conventionally - and convincingly at that. I'd say that action played no small part in Libya’s decision to renounce its terrorist ways.
The war on terror does not only apply to the Taliban and Afghanistan, it applies to all terror groups, regimes and organizations that foment terrorism. That being said, you’ve got to start somewhere.
To blunt the immediate threat, the Taliban was ousted from Afghanistan. Then came Iraq. Both of these conflicts are conventional and American prowess in conventional warfare is unmatched. So again, that’s Why Iraq – it’s a conventional conflict we could and did win. The fact that we could kill as many terrorists as possible is an added bonus.
As I’ve said, the war must be fought on all fronts, diplomatic, political and yes, killing them.
Why is it that some on the left have no trouble believing in the vast right-wing neocon conspiracy, but refuse to use the same logic when it comes to terrorists? Isn't it possible that Muslim terrorist groups and countries supporting terrorism have some loose if not direct affiliation with one another?
I’ve yet to see any evidence of a direct link to Saddam and the 9/11 terrorists, but is that what it will take? A terrorism manual penned and published by Saddam? Suicide belt with a ‘made in Baghdad’ tag? Is the fact that it was not his signature on the checks doled out to suicide bombers evidence enough to discount his support and funding of terror? Maybe the hundreds of thousands of bodies of men, women and children uncovered in Iraq might convince you of why Iraq is part of the war on terrorism.
Most if not all of us would like to live in a peaceful world. But until barbarians stop flying jetliners full of innocents into buildings, or hanging the burnt, mutilated bodies of Americans above a bridge, or hacking to death one of the most revered Shiite clerics in the doorway of one of the most holy mosques in all of Islam (I’m talking about you Al-Sadr), or cutting the head off an innocent American whose only crime was to trying to improve the telecom infrastructure of a neglected country, do you honestly believe that it is possible? Close the door to your room, put on some Floyd and keep dreaming.
I served as a Marine scout in the first gulf war and witnessed, felt and smelled the brutality of Saddams regime up close and personal. From the massive carnage of the perfume highway as the Iraqi's toted their Kuwaiti treasure back to Baghdad, young boys with their hands or ears sliced off, to the 'used' Kuwaiti women abandoned mutilated and bloody on the roadsides.
Yep, were in Iraq for oil....and freedom, and democracy, and common human decency and the belief that with all that Americans (and by extension 'Westerners') enjoy; it might just be possible to extend that opportunity the greater world. I know Bush ran under the philosophy that America should not be in the business of Nation building, but I ask you, didn’t 9/11 change that? Didn’t 9/11 HAVE to change that?
Then again, we could pull out of Iraq, treat the terrorists as a law enforcement problem, and retreat back to the relative safety of our homeland, only to once again witness the horror that the terrorists strive to bring to your doorstep everyday. I just hope it's not someone you know that’s jumping to their deaths from a burning skyscraper, or having their head chopped off for being American. Wait, maybe we should negotiate with them, ask them why they have such hatred for us, that would be better wouldn’t it? I’ll bet the first time many of you became aware of this subject was on 9/11, when innocent Americans and citizens from around the world were burned, crushed or leapt to their deaths. Aren’t we beyond negotiation?
I’m afraid many fail to see the forest through the trees. The big picture is that all these groups and governments would like nothing better that to kill every last one of us, and if the last 20 years is any indication, they’ll keep at it until all of our heads are rolling on the floor.
Wed May 12, 2004 3:57 pm
Originally posted by Murgatroyd
So, where's the oil then? Last I checked gas prices were at a record high.
Logistics.
Don't you think that if the US wanted to invade a country for oil, we would have invaded a country a little bit closer?
Like Venezuela, perhaps.
Thinking we invaded Iraq for oil is a myopic view. You need to look at the big picture. We didn't invade Iraq for oil. We invaded Iraq to invade an arab nation. To show the arab world that if they mess with us, we're going to take over their countries and (god forbid) try to westernize them and bring them out of the medieval Islamic Wahhabist mindset and bring about a religious reformation in the region.
You know, I read Arab media more than I read western media, and you know what the chief complaint in the Abu Gahrib prison abuse charges was in the Arab press?
That there was a woman involved.
No, please god, not that. A woman seeing naked men that weren't her husband. Go, take a look.
Couldn't have put it better.
As for my short opinion, lets keep finding these sadistic bastards and torture the hell out of them...
Yes...it wouldn't be "american-like" and cruel, however, I think they deserve every little bit of it.
Wed May 12, 2004 4:05 pm
Screw it we should just turn the whole place into glass.
Wed May 12, 2004 4:15 pm
Great post Heatmiser...I mean it. I cannot imagine what you have witnessed and hope that I never have to.
I agree with you by the way...I mean not just what is happening to the US and Iraqui people, but to the Africans (Congolese for an example) who are in the middle of genocide, same for the Serbs before them, and the Rawandans before them and on and on and on...it is just a cycle that seems to be never ending.
And I love your avatar...the Mr. Heatmiser song is in my head now...
I agree with you by the way...I mean not just what is happening to the US and Iraqui people, but to the Africans (Congolese for an example) who are in the middle of genocide, same for the Serbs before them, and the Rawandans before them and on and on and on...it is just a cycle that seems to be never ending.
And I love your avatar...the Mr. Heatmiser song is in my head now...
Wed May 12, 2004 4:17 pm
LoL Jeffro. I think both 'teams' diserve it.
What those terrorists are doing is cruel, but so is throwing bombs on a city.
What those terrorists are doing is cruel, but so is throwing bombs on a city.
Wed May 12, 2004 4:21 pm
Originally posted by Tour of Duty
LoL Jeffro. I think both 'teams' diserve it.
What those terrorists are doing is cruel, but so is throwing bombs on a city.
As long as it isn't me
Wed May 12, 2004 4:25 pm
Well first of all Mortimer, don't come on the boards and tell anyone they aren't entitled to post their opinion.
Now to the Iraq part...
In the Muslim world, pride for yourself and your self dignity is 100 times more important then your life. Thats why you see so many people willing to suicide bomb or take up arms against someone you know you will lose to. The people commiting suicide bombings and murders like these, have nothing and don't believe that the new Iraq will ever supply them with the money/jobs that Saddam did. So instead of living what they think will be a miserable life because they aren't higher classed and part of Saddam's regime, they become "National Heros" or "Martyrs". From their point of view its completly understandable why they do it. Its been happening for Centuries and its not going to stop. Im not saying its correct but the people like this don't view there life or death more important then their dignity, and a foreign opressor (US), in the Arab/Muslim world destroys their dignity. We all knew there would be some kind of response to the humiliation of the Iraqi prisoners, which im sure at least half would rather die, then have what was done to them done. Building the new Iraq will be harder then Bush thought for sure.
As for Major Fatty's post about the connection from Iraq to Al Queda (spelling), there was certainly a connection. Although im sure the US didn't publically release all the information, they were certainly connected.
As for Major Fatty's post about Oil...
Bush certainly didn't invade Iraq for oil. Saddam should and will be executed for all the stuff he did. Helping Al Queda and torturing his people and taking money from the country for his personal use. There are certainly more places in the world where things like this are going on, but with the terrorist attacks on the US and Spain Iraq is a good place to start.
Murgatroyd...
Oil doesn't get teleported to the US overnight. It will be 3 or 4 years before are prices drop, assuming the plan for Iraq is successful.
Now to the Iraq part...
In the Muslim world, pride for yourself and your self dignity is 100 times more important then your life. Thats why you see so many people willing to suicide bomb or take up arms against someone you know you will lose to. The people commiting suicide bombings and murders like these, have nothing and don't believe that the new Iraq will ever supply them with the money/jobs that Saddam did. So instead of living what they think will be a miserable life because they aren't higher classed and part of Saddam's regime, they become "National Heros" or "Martyrs". From their point of view its completly understandable why they do it. Its been happening for Centuries and its not going to stop. Im not saying its correct but the people like this don't view there life or death more important then their dignity, and a foreign opressor (US), in the Arab/Muslim world destroys their dignity. We all knew there would be some kind of response to the humiliation of the Iraqi prisoners, which im sure at least half would rather die, then have what was done to them done. Building the new Iraq will be harder then Bush thought for sure.
As for Major Fatty's post about the connection from Iraq to Al Queda (spelling), there was certainly a connection. Although im sure the US didn't publically release all the information, they were certainly connected.
As for Major Fatty's post about Oil...
Bush certainly didn't invade Iraq for oil. Saddam should and will be executed for all the stuff he did. Helping Al Queda and torturing his people and taking money from the country for his personal use. There are certainly more places in the world where things like this are going on, but with the terrorist attacks on the US and Spain Iraq is a good place to start.
Murgatroyd...
Oil doesn't get teleported to the US overnight. It will be 3 or 4 years before are prices drop, assuming the plan for Iraq is successful.
Wed May 12, 2004 4:25 pm
Humans are the dumbest creatures living on this damn planet.
"When you bring a child on this planet in these times, is pure torture." - The Rock, Nicolas Cage.
"When you bring a child on this planet in these times, is pure torture." - The Rock, Nicolas Cage.
Wed May 12, 2004 4:33 pm
Originally posted by Crypt
Well first of all Mortimer, don't come on the boards and tell anyone they aren't entitled to post their opinion.
I'm sorry...at one point did I say that nobody is entitled to their opinion???
Wed May 12, 2004 4:44 pm
Ha! Thanks Tommy. I remember heatmiser scared the heck out of me as a kid...and now, I have become him! I'm mr. Heatmiser, I'm mister sun..da da da da...
changing gears...
I debated throughout the day if I should post that message and finally decided to put it up (after editing it for length - yes it was a lot longer).
While what I experienced was not even close to the intensity and duration that our troops are enduring now, I think i'm able to say that it only takes a few seconds in the belly of the beast to understand the depravity of some humans.
I'm an avid watcher of all things political and it just tears my heart out to see young marines, laden down with gear, tired, hot, hungry and longing for home risking and losing their lives for what some myopic people describe as a war for oil.
I am at once transfixed and saddened at some of the images of our fighting men and women as they risk their lives. I remember months ago seeing a clip of a group of marines at a roadside funeral for a fallen marine. The looks on their faces where stoic and without tears, hard charging marines.
But I shed a tear for them and still do when I see them on the news, at times it is almost uncontrollable. It's a feeling of being proud, sad that I'm not there to pitch in and recalling the feelings that my family felt for me while in the gulf.
I sit in front of the tv rooting them on, trying to motivate them and wispering Semper Fi.
I hope that people realize that there are people out there that want to kill us all. It's almost hard to fathom, but they want each and every one of us dead. It really is that black and white.
As the old axiom goes, 'war is hell' - no human being should want to kill another. Sooner or later one has to face the whole reality of it all. You would think that in the era of 24 hr news more people would come to realize that. You would think that after hearing the sickening screams of someone being decapitated they would take their rose colored glasses off, take a deep breath and resolve never to lose this fight.
Even though we aren't landing massive amounts of troops in amphibious operations, or dropping airbone behind the lines, we are at war - it's just that the other side has known this for years.
The war on terror knows now bounds or borders.
changing gears...
I debated throughout the day if I should post that message and finally decided to put it up (after editing it for length - yes it was a lot longer).
While what I experienced was not even close to the intensity and duration that our troops are enduring now, I think i'm able to say that it only takes a few seconds in the belly of the beast to understand the depravity of some humans.
I'm an avid watcher of all things political and it just tears my heart out to see young marines, laden down with gear, tired, hot, hungry and longing for home risking and losing their lives for what some myopic people describe as a war for oil.
I am at once transfixed and saddened at some of the images of our fighting men and women as they risk their lives. I remember months ago seeing a clip of a group of marines at a roadside funeral for a fallen marine. The looks on their faces where stoic and without tears, hard charging marines.
But I shed a tear for them and still do when I see them on the news, at times it is almost uncontrollable. It's a feeling of being proud, sad that I'm not there to pitch in and recalling the feelings that my family felt for me while in the gulf.
I sit in front of the tv rooting them on, trying to motivate them and wispering Semper Fi.
I hope that people realize that there are people out there that want to kill us all. It's almost hard to fathom, but they want each and every one of us dead. It really is that black and white.
As the old axiom goes, 'war is hell' - no human being should want to kill another. Sooner or later one has to face the whole reality of it all. You would think that in the era of 24 hr news more people would come to realize that. You would think that after hearing the sickening screams of someone being decapitated they would take their rose colored glasses off, take a deep breath and resolve never to lose this fight.
Even though we aren't landing massive amounts of troops in amphibious operations, or dropping airbone behind the lines, we are at war - it's just that the other side has known this for years.
The war on terror knows now bounds or borders.