Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:47 pm
Originally posted by JimmyTango
If soem hilljack in the middle of the South raises his kid to be a racist, and participates in a video of a mock lynching, does that kid deserve to die? Fuck no. These kids are the most tragic victims of all, and you want to treat them as animals.
You want to know why other countries are sick of America and Americans? Jeffro's post up there is just an example of the majority of American's egotistical slant on the world. Look in the mirror. We are the only country in the world that goes around and tells everyone else we are the best country, and if they do not like hearing that then they can fuck off.
Jimmy's got a point.
Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:47 pm
Damn JT I must have missed that episode:D
Ok deep breathes here, need to relax, I got pissed off at Shockwave's post there and was a little hot.
I get a little upset when people apply their absolute moral values on situations that they have nothing more than a politically motivated opinion on.
I am not hacking on you here Shockwave just tossing this out for discussion.
I too would love a wonderful world where we all just get along, but this one isn't it. I wish there weren't any crazy terrorist bastages out there and it would be great if things like this were never made. I would be more than happy if US and Allied troops weren't on the ground over there.
The biggest mistake anyone could ever make in any type of war is to expect your enemy to play by your rules. Nobody who has ever been succesful has done that and plenty who lost did. You can't expect a sworn enemy to play by your rules. Especially when there is no way they can compete in a stand up fight. Lets not forget that the upbringing that some of the people recieve over there allow certain individuals to fly airplanes full of innocent people into a building full of innocent people.
I could be scathing here and infer that you are justifying the beheadings that have taken place but I don't think that was your intention.
Here's a scenario for you to think about. You don't even have to respond just cogitate upon it.
Viet Nam, pick a year when our troops were there. Little kids were trained by the NVA and VC to approach our troops with an offer for soda, a shoeshine, or to beg for candy and then set off a hand grenade. You see a 8 year old approaching with a hand grenade. What would you do? Do you think your moral judgement would outweigh your desire to live?
Now lets not get into a discussion of the justification for being in Viet Nam. Its not germaine just as wether or not we should be in Iraq is a moot point now. Its done and we have to live with the consequences wether we like it or not.
Morals are a nice thing to have but are they are situational. Anyone who is able to live by their moral code thru-out their entire life (and only you would know if you do) should consider it a luxury. I wish it were possible for everyone.
I really think a major problem in Western trains of thought is that we see things a individual incidents and not as a whole. I am sure you abhor the incidents of 9-11 and the beheadings that have happened over there (I hope so anyway) so when I see things like this I see it as part of the problem.
We can discuss many things thru out the last century and it would probably surprise you at how I am more than willing to admit the causes behind them. But we don't have the luxury of a do-over and we have to face the situations we have today.
For the record I am against the indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians. This may disgust some of you but I feel little remorse when military targets are hit and there are innocent people there. I wish it weren't so but I don't see many of you who are abhorred by it trying to get automobiles benned and they kill 50,000 people a year in America alone. Hell it took 11 years in Viet Nam for that many to be killed or missing. Are you gonna give up your car now? There's that situational moral thing again.
Ok deep breathes here, need to relax, I got pissed off at Shockwave's post there and was a little hot.
I get a little upset when people apply their absolute moral values on situations that they have nothing more than a politically motivated opinion on.
I am not hacking on you here Shockwave just tossing this out for discussion.
I too would love a wonderful world where we all just get along, but this one isn't it. I wish there weren't any crazy terrorist bastages out there and it would be great if things like this were never made. I would be more than happy if US and Allied troops weren't on the ground over there.
The biggest mistake anyone could ever make in any type of war is to expect your enemy to play by your rules. Nobody who has ever been succesful has done that and plenty who lost did. You can't expect a sworn enemy to play by your rules. Especially when there is no way they can compete in a stand up fight. Lets not forget that the upbringing that some of the people recieve over there allow certain individuals to fly airplanes full of innocent people into a building full of innocent people.
I could be scathing here and infer that you are justifying the beheadings that have taken place but I don't think that was your intention.
Here's a scenario for you to think about. You don't even have to respond just cogitate upon it.
Viet Nam, pick a year when our troops were there. Little kids were trained by the NVA and VC to approach our troops with an offer for soda, a shoeshine, or to beg for candy and then set off a hand grenade. You see a 8 year old approaching with a hand grenade. What would you do? Do you think your moral judgement would outweigh your desire to live?
Now lets not get into a discussion of the justification for being in Viet Nam. Its not germaine just as wether or not we should be in Iraq is a moot point now. Its done and we have to live with the consequences wether we like it or not.
Morals are a nice thing to have but are they are situational. Anyone who is able to live by their moral code thru-out their entire life (and only you would know if you do) should consider it a luxury. I wish it were possible for everyone.
I really think a major problem in Western trains of thought is that we see things a individual incidents and not as a whole. I am sure you abhor the incidents of 9-11 and the beheadings that have happened over there (I hope so anyway) so when I see things like this I see it as part of the problem.
We can discuss many things thru out the last century and it would probably surprise you at how I am more than willing to admit the causes behind them. But we don't have the luxury of a do-over and we have to face the situations we have today.
For the record I am against the indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians. This may disgust some of you but I feel little remorse when military targets are hit and there are innocent people there. I wish it weren't so but I don't see many of you who are abhorred by it trying to get automobiles benned and they kill 50,000 people a year in America alone. Hell it took 11 years in Viet Nam for that many to be killed or missing. Are you gonna give up your car now? There's that situational moral thing again.
Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:54 pm
Well just remember that these freaks that go around and behead people were children once too. But that doesn't at all mean that they deserved to die when they were young because that hadn't commited any serious offenses yet.
2 cents (Hope I don't regret it)
2 cents (Hope I don't regret it)
Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:57 pm
Originally posted by Colonel Ingus
Damn JT I must have missed that episode:D
No episode man, the MOVIE! Poor Duke, took a snake to the chest from Serpentor.
Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:58 pm
Originally posted by JimmyTango
In the last day or two, how many threads have you started and or posted in with 'liberals this and that' or with stupid pictures. had I done anythign remotely like that you would have shit your pants and ranted for hours about me 'starting shit.'
You are the poster boy of what is so fucked up with this country. You are more than happy to hold us Americans up to a certain standard, but when it comes to another country, it's 'fuck them, we are American, here we come.' If people do not see eye to eye with you, they are some hippy liberal commie that thinks if we hug and kiss the world is right. In no way was Shockwaves' post close to that. If soem hilljack in the middle of the South raises his kid to be a racist, and participates in a video of a mock lynching, does that kid deserve to die? Fuck no. These kids are the most tragic victims of all, and you want to treat them as animals.
You want to know why other countries are sick of America and Americans? Jeffro's post up there is just an example of the majority of American's egotistical slant on the world. Look in the mirror. We are the only country in the world that goes around and tells everyone else we are the best country, and if they do not like hearing that then they can fuck off.
Where did I say "we we're the best"?
I wasn't trying to hint that at all. We have just as many problems (if not more) than many countries around the world. However, when comparing quality of life, Half of those kids probably live in squander. While we worry about being late to work, they worry about finding something to eat. (If I'm wrong, I'm sorry but that's my take).
Wed Jun 30, 2004 5:07 pm
Originally posted by hightimber
Isn't the Sun the equivalent of the National Inquirer here?
Nope, the Sun has Page 3
-Bagginses
Wed Jun 30, 2004 5:09 pm
Originally posted by Jeffro
The middle-east as whole hates our guts because we have it better than them:
We have it better than them.
You then list some stuff as a joke. I also never said you said we are the best, but used your post as an example of how we American's act toward the rest of the world.
The problem is we are straining our relationships with other countries since we seem to have the god given right to tell everyone else we are the best. We rub it in everyone's faces and demean them as if they are animals. We go so far that federal buildings rename french fries 'freedom fries' since the French do not see as we do and will not just lower their heads and say 'ok, if you say so.' Heck, French's mustard, an AMERICAN company, is effected by it. Then we wonder why our relationship with France continues to get more and more strained? There is a post here by beo(i think) ripping Germany and other European countries since they do nto see as we do or do as we say, bringing up their history, like WW2 and German's teaching 'morality.' No mention on US slavery and basically erasing the Native American cultures for our own greed. There are those that claim that Germany and France, who just wanted more proof, are in cahoots for lots of money with Iraq, therefor oppose the war. Gee, couldn't possibly be they did not feel it was right, hell no, we're American, we are always right!!!
If I was from another country, and didn't know what it was like being an American, I would think we were a bunch of stuck up, self centered, jack asses.
Wed Jun 30, 2004 5:19 pm
I'd like to say that people in the western world have higher values than middle easterners killing each other, but after reading your post I guess not. You seem to have it in your head that little kids, who probably believe they are doing nothing wrong, are worthless and you couldn't care less if those little "shits" were killed in an explosion. It's people like you who give supporters of the war a bad image.
Please compare and contrast the two.
For the record I am against the indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians. This may disgust some of you but I feel little remorse when military targets are hit and there are innocent people there. I wish it weren't so but I don't see many of you who are abhorred by it trying to get automobiles benned and they kill 50,000 people a year in America alone. Hell it took 11 years in Viet Nam for that many to be killed or missing. Are you gonna give up your car now? There's that situational moral thing again.
I'm defending little kids from an asshat like you who won't even think twice when women and children are being killed in explosions.
I don't see you posting about getting rid of cars. And oddly enough that IS something you have control over as opposed to foreign policy of another country. You don't seem to think twice when hundreds are killed everyday. Once again, not good when it happens, Once again situational morality.
I am more than happy for war to have a bad image. Can it have a good image? It shouldn't. It should be abhorent and in a perfect world there wouldn't be any.
In the last day or two, how many threads have you started and or posted in with 'liberals this and that' or with stupid pictures. had I done anythign remotely like that you would have shit your pants and ranted for hours about me 'starting shit.'
Actually Jimmy you had many posts like that and I responded shortly and concisely while avoiding personal attacks. And I posted Clintons picture (thats the only thing) more for humor, not a political statement, which is the way many took it. To my surprise you responded to none of them and instead engaged in a flame war with Folic and Face.
You are the poster boy of what is so fucked up with this country. You are more than happy to hold us Americans up to a certain standard, but when it comes to another country, it's 'fuck them, we are American, here we come.' If people do not see eye to eye with you, they are some hippy liberal commie that thinks if we hug and kiss the world is right. In no way was Shockwaves' post close to that. If soem hilljack in the middle of the South raises his kid to be a racist, and participates in a video of a mock lynching, does that kid deserve to die? Fuck no. These kids are the most tragic victims of all, and you want to treat them as animals.
Nice to know you know what all the ills of our country are. Thank god you have the moral clarity to see what is neccesary and right. George believes in moral clarity and I don't like it from him either. I don't believe I accussed shockwave of being a "hippy liberal commie" but do you deny that there are people that think that way? He applied an absolute moral value to a comment of mine which was evidently misunderstood. I took issue with that.
And it may surprise you but I agree with you 100% on those kids being victims. I don't want to treat them as animals. I do wants the sick bastards that would raise them that way dead.
People die everyday from a variety of causes and I am going to feel no more remorse for those whose deaths are highlighted for political reasons than I will for the hundreds I don't even hear of. Sorry they are dead but I feel the same for the accident victims.
Wed Jun 30, 2004 5:35 pm
http://forums.powervs.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10330
http://forums.powervs.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10329
http://forums.powervs.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10326
3 posts in one day roughly within 3 hours of each other. All political in some way or form, and just happen to be after you get fired up like many of us did in the F9/11 thread. Those are just the ones you started.
All you have got to do is LISTEN to what other countries are saying, instead of just dismissing the since we can never be wrong and we are the best thing since our caveman ancestors figured out how to put a penis inside a vagina.
http://forums.powervs.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10329
http://forums.powervs.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10326
3 posts in one day roughly within 3 hours of each other. All political in some way or form, and just happen to be after you get fired up like many of us did in the F9/11 thread. Those are just the ones you started.
Originally posted by Colonel Ingus
Nice to know you know what all the ills of our country are. Thank god you have the moral clarity to see what is neccesary and right. George believes in moral clarity and I don't like it from him either.
All you have got to do is LISTEN to what other countries are saying, instead of just dismissing the since we can never be wrong and we are the best thing since our caveman ancestors figured out how to put a penis inside a vagina.
Originally posted by Colonel Ingus
I don't believe I accussed shockwave of being a "hippy liberal commie" but do you deny that there are people that think that way?
Originally posted by Colonel Ingus
You seem to be into this western liberal attitude that we can all just get along by "understanding" others plights and "accepting them for their cultural values".
Wed Jun 30, 2004 5:36 pm
The problem is we are straining our relationships with other countries since we seem to have the god given right to tell everyone else we are the best. We rub it in everyone's faces and demean them as if they are animals. We go so far that federal buildings rename french fries 'freedom fries' since the French do not see as we do and will not just lower their heads and say 'ok, if you say so.' Heck, French's mustard, an AMERICAN company, is effected by it. Then we wonder why our relationship with France continues to get more and more strained? There is a post here by beo(i think) ripping Germany and other European countries since they do nto see as we do or do as we say, bringing up their history, like WW2 and German's teaching 'morality.' No mention on US slavery and basically erasing the Native American cultures for our own greed. There are those that claim that Germany and France, who just wanted more proof, are in cahoots for lots of money with Iraq, therefor oppose the war. Gee, couldn't possibly be they did not feel it was right, hell no, we're American, we are always right!!!
There is a lot of truth in what you say there Jimmy and you would be surprised how much of it I agree with. Boycotting french products and renaming fries is asinine.
But I also have seen evidence that shows there was a lot of money being made by concerns in those countries. A lot of people are feeling that business decisions have a lot to do with our being in Iraq. Do you think the French, Germans, or the Russians would be any different.
The United States has done more to end slavery than any other nation or group in history. Should we be proud we once had a slave based economy? I don't think so. Can we be a little bit proud that we ended it and did more to end slavery than almost any other group in history? I would like to think so.
Gotta agree with you on the Indians, I am personally quite amused every time I hear people bitching about Indian Casino's. I like to think of their casino's as a long delayed poetic justice and always rally against the state legalizing gambling. I am ok with the Indians having a monopoly on it.
Our country has a spotty history and a lot of problems but I can honestly say its one of the better things in history so far.. That doesn't mean I am blind to the errors or ignore the mistakes. And you could very well be right, We are an arrogant proud people.
Wed Jun 30, 2004 5:38 pm
Originally posted by Evan
Jimmy's got a point.
it is Lewis Black's point, actually. He is by far the best comedian out there, If you have HBO, or a friend has HBO and you are over at his/her's house, watch his one hour special.
Another great 'saying' he woke me up to:
Democrats are the party of no ideas.
Republicans are the party of bad ideas.
Wed Jun 30, 2004 5:41 pm
Originally posted by Colonel Ingus
Please compare and contrast the two.
I'm not going to tell you how your "oh well shit happens" approach to seeing children being killed is similiar to middle easterners strapping bombs on children and blowing up US soldiers when it comes to values. Figure it out yourself. It's rather obvious.
I don't see you posting about getting rid of cars. And oddly enough that IS something you have control over as opposed to foreign policy of another country. You don't seem to think twice when hundreds are killed everyday. Once again, not good when it happens, Once again situational morality.
I am more than happy for war to have a bad image. Can it have a good image? It shouldn't. It should be abhorent and in a perfect world there wouldn't be any.
Critisizing you for saying you don't care about children being killed is not the same thing as advocating cars be taken off the road. People have a choice of whether or not they want to get into a car. People in Iraq don't have a choice between being killed by a bomb from a fighter jet and staying alive.
Wed Jun 30, 2004 5:49 pm
Quick rebuttal to Jimmy's three links there.
1) WMD's in Syria and I would think that would be germaine to any discussion regardless of your political point of view. No liberal bashing or conservative supporting there. Hell I even point out that I am not a conservative.
2) A comment from Hillary Clinton about raising our taxes for our own good. Further along in the post I go at great length to point out my views on taxation and go to some lengths to attack what many would consider conservative tax policy.
3) Like I said i posted that for humor. I found it funny and wether you believe or not I spent the late 90's defending a lot of the good things Clinton did to conservative friends. But nopt without seeing his faults.
1) WMD's in Syria and I would think that would be germaine to any discussion regardless of your political point of view. No liberal bashing or conservative supporting there. Hell I even point out that I am not a conservative.
2) A comment from Hillary Clinton about raising our taxes for our own good. Further along in the post I go at great length to point out my views on taxation and go to some lengths to attack what many would consider conservative tax policy.
3) Like I said i posted that for humor. I found it funny and wether you believe or not I spent the late 90's defending a lot of the good things Clinton did to conservative friends. But nopt without seeing his faults.
Wed Jun 30, 2004 5:51 pm
I dunno for sure, but didn't France make money off of Saddam being in power? If that is true, then I despise the French (those of them that were in on it).
Wed Jun 30, 2004 5:57 pm
Originally posted by Pierce
I dunno for sure, but didn't France make money off of Saddam being in power? If that is true, then I despise the French (those of them that were in on it).
Saddam, and Iraq owed France Billions and Billions of dollars. France and Germany both built weapons facilities and such, and now they will never get paid back for it all. Some people point that and attribute it to why France more than Germany, opposed the war.