Minnesota passes Biodiesel law!!

[cavalierlwt]

Slog, What are talking about, there are plenty of organizations that have been using it for a while now, they are perfectly happy with the results.
What's not viable??

[slog]

Originally posted by cavalierlwt
Slog, What are talking about, there are plenty of organizations that have been using it for a while now, they are perfectly happy with the results.
What's not viable??

1) You can't make enough of it to make even the tiniest of dents in the fuel supply based on the United State's daily consumption

2) If you took away all the government subsidies involved in makeing it (including the subisidies to farmers) the cost to produce it makes it not worthwhile.

[cavalierlwt]

Gas is subsidized, even at $3 a gallon, the true cost of gas (from oil) is probably $7 per gallon. Besides the price you pay at the pump, you have to add in all the foreign aid that we give to certain countries to try to stay in OPECs good graces, all the money we spend militarily in the ME, Iraq, Israel. All this so we can keep the supply steady. Add in the costs to our economy (which is HUGE) when politics or war threaten the supply and the price fluctuates. Fluctuating prices hurt an economy so much, that's why most industries trade in 'futures' so they can lock a price in for a commodity(even if it's higher than normal) for a year or so.

[slog]

Originally posted by cavalierlwt
Gas is subsidized, even at $3 a gallon, the true cost of gas (from oil) is probably $7 per gallon. Besides the price you pay at the pump, you have to add in all the foreign aid that we give to certain countries to try to stay in OPECs good graces, all the money we spend militarily in the ME, Iraq, Israel.

You are making stuff up. Heh. That's not even remotely true. The United States alone consumes 862 million gallons a DAY.

If the true cost of gasoline is 7 dollars, and it costs 3 bucks a gallon, then you are saying that 4 dollars a gallon is subsidized. so 862,000,000*4 = 3,448,000,000, or $3.5 Billion dollars a day.

That equals $1,258,520,000,000,000.00 a year. Um no, we are not providing that much ($1,258 TRILLION) dollars a year. I'm pretty sure that the ENTIRE BUDGET isn't that big.

All this so we can keep the supply steady. Add in the costs to our economy (which is HUGE) when politics or war threaten the supply and the price fluctuates. Fluctuating prices hurt an economy so much, that's why most industries trade in 'futures' so they can lock a price in for a commodity(even if it's higher than normal) for a year or so.

Last I checked, Fluctuating prices is someone normal for a Free Market economy. Last time I checked the stock market at least.

[Alofwar]

HELLO PPL, did u read what i said about that crop that produces an oil u can run your car on? Its cheaper, 100%enviromently sound, no changes are needed to our cars now, and is grown in the same as corn.

[A.M. Foxtrot]

Originally posted by slog
Biodiesel isn't even remotely viable as an alternative fuel. This is just a giveaway to farming special interests.

No it's not. Not in the US anyway. Only 1% of cars sold in the US are diesel powered. However, it is more viable in countires that have a larger percentage of diesel powered vehicles. And saying it's just a giveaway for Farming interests, well...That's just plain ignorant.

[slog]

Originally posted by A.M. Foxtrot
No it's not. Not in the US anyway. Only 1% of cars sold in the US are diesel powered. However, it is more viable in countires that have a larger percentage of diesel powered vehicles. And saying it's just a giveaway for Farming interests, well...That's just plain ignorant.

For the past several years, the USDA has offered grants for biodiesel production through the Commodity Credit Corporation (CCC). The CCC payments for expansion of biodiesel production in the fiscal years37 2004-06 are $1.45-$1.47 (2002 dollars) per gallon for soybean oil biodiesel

From http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/analysispaper/biodiesel/

In other words, the US TAXPAYERS pay $1.45 for every gallon of Biodiesel produced.

Ignorant? heh

Originally posted by Alofwar
HELLO PPL, did u read what i said about that crop that produces an oil u can run your car on? Its cheaper, 100%enviromently sound, no changes are needed to our cars now, and is grown in the same as corn.

LINK?

[A.M. Foxtrot]

Originally posted by slog
For the past several years, the USDA has offered grants for biodiesel production through the Commodity Credit Corporation (CCC). The CCC payments for expansion of biodiesel production in the fiscal years37 2004-06 are $1.45-$1.47 (2002 dollars) per gallon for soybean oil biodiesel

From http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/analysispaper/biodiesel/

In other words, the US TAXPAYERS pay $1.45 for every gallon of Biodiesel produced.

Ignorant? heh

Dude, How do you see that as a waste. Money going towards expanding production of fuel to make it more economically viable for consumers to purchase. For that 1.45 you're at least getting a return on your "investment" Cleaner air and less dependence on foreign oil.

[deathBOB]

I think this goes deep into the problems with farm subsidies and indeed subsidies of all types. I suggest this discussion not get any deeper into the issue, it soon becomes pure politics, something not allowed on this board.

On a personal note I think its little more than for show. The real impact of this will be nil. Low sulfur diesel is a much bigger deal.

My school had a local distributor of biodiesel come talk to us. He made his biodiesel second hand from restaurant waste. He brought up the idea of using microorganisms to produce oil. Many kinds of algae and diatoms produce oils that could be harvested and used as fuel. Imagine huge ponds full of these things making oil. I think the density of energy produced was much much higher than plants.

[Allister Fiend]

Originally posted by PraiseA||ah
Jobs come and go.. the environment is rather important to our survival as a species. We are at the top of a very fragile and interconnected pyramid. Kick out the base and ultimately and eventually we will fall too. Everything is connected and we don't know most of the species' interdependencies.

I don't see this argument as political, I see it as scientific. Global warming is a fact. It is happening and it's politics that get in the way to obscure the facts. It's not until we are too late to stop the momentum of a drastic change in the atmospheric environment will anything be done, is my and other people's fear.

FACT!!!!!! Someone, somewhere at one time thought it was a fact that the planet was flat.

For everyone person or article you can supply stating it is a fact, I can supply the same amount stating otherwise.

The planet goes through cycles, at some point in our future we will have another ice age (and no one will be able to blame Bush for that, unless it is Bush MXXII). You can not come to any conclusions on data from just the last 50 years on a planet that has been going through different cycles for millenia (and some of these cycles last thousands of years).

Allister Fiend

BTW, I'm all for alternative fuels. If someone can develope a cheap fuel that burns clean and gives me the same Horsepower and convienience that I have now, I'm all for it.

[cavalierlwt]

The page I checked said we used about 146 billion gallons per year.

US military budget in 2004= 437 Billion
We are spending about 80-90 billion a year in Iraq.
40 billion for homeland security.
5 billion in aid to the middle east this year

$3 might be high, I would say close to $2 per gallon is about right.

If we didn't have to ensure that the oil flows we could spend maybe 100 billion on military each year, and still outspend both Britain and Russia combined. That's right Britain spends (in peacetime) 35 billion a year on their military. Why do we need 350-450 billion a year on our military? We're not in a cold war. Somalia was a minor military engagement. Where have all our big fights been in the last 20-30 years? Even our little fights. With the exception of a few, every little tangle we have is in the Middle East.

[cavalierlwt]

Originally posted by Allister Fiend
FACT!!!!!! Someone, somewhere at one time thought it was a fact that the planet was flat.

For everyone person or article you can supply stating it is a fact, I can supply the same amount stating otherwise.

The planet will survive long after we are all gone. It has for millenia.

Allister Fiend

My favorite stupid quote:
Hey, I love the Earth! I keep all my stuff there!

[deathBOB]

Damnit Allister I hate it when people edit posts in political threads. Makes it harder to argue.

Anyways, I don't doubt the planet will survive. I just don't like breathing smogey air or haveing to worry about the mercury in my tuna fish. To be honest I care little about the environment itself. However, when environmental changes endanger the health and well being of humans a line has been crossed.

I don't think we can live in a perfect happy world but I think we can do a lot better than we are now.

[cavalierlwt]

Originally posted by Allister Fiend

BTW, I'm all for alternative fuels. If someone can develope a cheap fuel that burns clean and gives me the same Horsepower and convienience that I have now, I'm all for it.

We can do it Alister! We will have our cake and it too!!

BTW, the Earth is round?? I thought monsters ate any ships that got close to the edge! Where do you get your information?:lol: