Government
- cavalierlwt
-
- Posts: 2840
- Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 12:54 pm
by cavalierlwt » Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:30 pm
Originally posted by CodeRed68
War in Iraq = preventative maintenance
Thank god, any day now Saddam was going to send thousands of these people thousands of miles to the US, where they would plant thousands of IEDs and snipe at thousands of soldiers and police.
Yeah, that was a much better idea than dumping 50,000 soldiers into Afghanistan and catching Osama Bin Laden.
"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our Number One Priority and we will not rest until we find him."
George W. Bush, September 13, 2001.
"I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
George W. Bush, March 13, 2002.
by CodeRed68 » Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:44 pm
Saddam Hussein was not going to send troops to invade the US but you can rest assured he was up to something anti-US. We're talking about a man who gassed an entire town of his own people as revenge.
And since were now laying down quotes:
"The threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but as I said, it is not new. It has been with us since the end of that war, and particularly in the last 4 years we know after Operation Desert Fox failed to force him to reaccept them, that he has continued to build those weapons. He has had a free hand for 4 years to reconstitute these weapons, allowing the world, during the interval, to lose the focus we had on weapons of mass destruction and the issue of proliferation." - John Kerry, 10/9/02
"We need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his offenses. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. ...And now he is miscalculating America’s response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, has spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons programs and disarm. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War." - John Kerry, 1/23/03
"Iraq may not be the war on terror itself, but it is critical to the outcome of the war on terror, and therefore any advance in Iraq is an advance forward in that..." - John Kerry 12/15/03
And since were now laying down quotes:
"The threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but as I said, it is not new. It has been with us since the end of that war, and particularly in the last 4 years we know after Operation Desert Fox failed to force him to reaccept them, that he has continued to build those weapons. He has had a free hand for 4 years to reconstitute these weapons, allowing the world, during the interval, to lose the focus we had on weapons of mass destruction and the issue of proliferation." - John Kerry, 10/9/02
"We need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his offenses. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. ...And now he is miscalculating America’s response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, has spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons programs and disarm. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War." - John Kerry, 1/23/03
"Iraq may not be the war on terror itself, but it is critical to the outcome of the war on terror, and therefore any advance in Iraq is an advance forward in that..." - John Kerry 12/15/03
thanks to Spirit of Me for the sig!
- SavageParrot
-
- Posts: 10599
- Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2003 5:42 pm
- Location: Cheltenham, England
by SavageParrot » Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:51 pm
Originally posted by CodeRed68
War in Iraq = preventative maintenance
Funny that's what they said about vietnam...
As for the weapons you knew he had them. To paraphrase Bill Hicks all you had to do was look at the receipt...
- cavalierlwt
-
- Posts: 2840
- Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 12:54 pm
by cavalierlwt » Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:09 pm
John Kerry isn't president. Bush is. Bush laid out the case, and congress voted. Bush laid out a case that wasn't entirely truthful, namely in the area of 'impending, imminent danger'
That being said, I'm not shedding tears for Saddam getting beaten, I'm pissed because I don't believe in nation building, especially for a nation of people who really are not all that big on our ideas and culture. Yeah, they voted, but push comes to shove, it's just like Vietnam. Those people don't have some burning desire to set up a western style democracy. I don't feel like seeing my friends get picked off while we try to be chearleaders for democracy. We're back to leading the horse to the water and then trying to make him drink. Yeah, Saddam was a bad guy, and I have no doubt he was up to something every minute of his life. I just think we should have finished the job in Afghanistan first and foremost. I really think if we dumped enough troops into there at the right time, we could have gotten him. This (to me) would have been huge. We haven't damaged the terrorists in Iraq, I think we created more animosity, made it easier for them to recruit. I think we would have been better served (besides capturing Osama) but strengthening our borders, inspecting more than 3% of incoming cargo ships, and finding and breaking up the cells and their finances throughout the world. We put most of our resources into Iraq, not enough in these other areas. Now Iran is going to get the bomb, N.Korea has been pretty petulant, but we're tied up in Iraq, can't really exert any pressure on either of these countries. Also, we obviously haven't fixed up our emergency response problems very well, for examply New Orleans/Katrina showed that. My list goes on and on. We missed a good chance to ally up with Russia last year. After those chechen terrorists (Islamic terrorists) attacked that Russian school, Bush chided Putin and told him to seek a political solution to the situation, not a military solution. This was as dumb as dogshit. We certainly wouldn't want someone saying that to us after 9/11. Then one of the head guys from the Chechens sought asylum in the US and Britain, Russia asked for this guy to be turned over to them, we refused--sort of like Afghanistan refusing to turn over Bin Laden.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/09/russia.siege/
That being said, I'm not shedding tears for Saddam getting beaten, I'm pissed because I don't believe in nation building, especially for a nation of people who really are not all that big on our ideas and culture. Yeah, they voted, but push comes to shove, it's just like Vietnam. Those people don't have some burning desire to set up a western style democracy. I don't feel like seeing my friends get picked off while we try to be chearleaders for democracy. We're back to leading the horse to the water and then trying to make him drink. Yeah, Saddam was a bad guy, and I have no doubt he was up to something every minute of his life. I just think we should have finished the job in Afghanistan first and foremost. I really think if we dumped enough troops into there at the right time, we could have gotten him. This (to me) would have been huge. We haven't damaged the terrorists in Iraq, I think we created more animosity, made it easier for them to recruit. I think we would have been better served (besides capturing Osama) but strengthening our borders, inspecting more than 3% of incoming cargo ships, and finding and breaking up the cells and their finances throughout the world. We put most of our resources into Iraq, not enough in these other areas. Now Iran is going to get the bomb, N.Korea has been pretty petulant, but we're tied up in Iraq, can't really exert any pressure on either of these countries. Also, we obviously haven't fixed up our emergency response problems very well, for examply New Orleans/Katrina showed that. My list goes on and on. We missed a good chance to ally up with Russia last year. After those chechen terrorists (Islamic terrorists) attacked that Russian school, Bush chided Putin and told him to seek a political solution to the situation, not a military solution. This was as dumb as dogshit. We certainly wouldn't want someone saying that to us after 9/11. Then one of the head guys from the Chechens sought asylum in the US and Britain, Russia asked for this guy to be turned over to them, we refused--sort of like Afghanistan refusing to turn over Bin Laden.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/09/russia.siege/
Failing to plead
with a throat full of dust
Life falls asleep
in a fetal position.
with a throat full of dust
Life falls asleep
in a fetal position.
by PudriK » Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:09 pm
Congrads all for keeping this civil so far.
Not sure what else to say. We went in, didn't really need to, but fuck, we're there now. And it's not black and white. Sure, our pretenses may be a bit fishy, but we are accomplishing something good, introducing democracy and rule-of-law to a part of the world that has been too long without--even if that wasn't our original goal. We have to stick to it. Like typical Americans, we didn't take responsibility for questioning our president when he pushed us in, and now we aren't taking responsbility for being there... it's our mess, we have to clean it up.
The irony is, while everyone is assuming that the reason we're pulling troops out is because of political pressure, there are many practical reasons to do so as well... as a column in The Atlantic pointed out last month, it kind of forces the Iraqis to step up to the plate if they know we're leaving. Might put a little more hitch in their giddyup. Not to mention what Abizaid has said about reducing our presence in order to reduce the footprint of occupation. Too bad, if it works, that the political pressure from home will probably be the reason and will take the credit.
Not sure what else to say. We went in, didn't really need to, but fuck, we're there now. And it's not black and white. Sure, our pretenses may be a bit fishy, but we are accomplishing something good, introducing democracy and rule-of-law to a part of the world that has been too long without--even if that wasn't our original goal. We have to stick to it. Like typical Americans, we didn't take responsibility for questioning our president when he pushed us in, and now we aren't taking responsbility for being there... it's our mess, we have to clean it up.
The irony is, while everyone is assuming that the reason we're pulling troops out is because of political pressure, there are many practical reasons to do so as well... as a column in The Atlantic pointed out last month, it kind of forces the Iraqis to step up to the plate if they know we're leaving. Might put a little more hitch in their giddyup. Not to mention what Abizaid has said about reducing our presence in order to reduce the footprint of occupation. Too bad, if it works, that the political pressure from home will probably be the reason and will take the credit.
PudriK
("Pudd-rick")
Irregular player since 2003
("Pudd-rick")
Irregular player since 2003
by Rand0m » Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:14 pm
Originally posted by CodeRed68
Saddam Hussein was not going to send troops to invade the US but you can rest assured he was up to something anti-US. We're talking about a man who gassed an entire town of his own people as revenge.
And since were now laying down quotes:
"The threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but as I said, it is not new. It has been with us since the end of that war, and particularly in the last 4 years we know after Operation Desert Fox failed to force him to reaccept them, that he has continued to build those weapons. He has had a free hand for 4 years to reconstitute these weapons, allowing the world, during the interval, to lose the focus we had on weapons of mass destruction and the issue of proliferation." - John Kerry, 10/9/02
"We need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his offenses. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. ...And now he is miscalculating America’s response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, has spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons programs and disarm. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War." - John Kerry, 1/23/03
"Iraq may not be the war on terror itself, but it is critical to the outcome of the war on terror, and therefore any advance in Iraq is an advance forward in that..." - John Kerry 12/15/03
cavalierlwt was being sarcastic.
As for keeping this thread civil I say we make a private section for politics/government but people like jimmytango and others dont have access to it
- cavalierlwt
-
- Posts: 2840
- Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 12:54 pm
by cavalierlwt » Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:15 pm
The best guess as to what happened to the WMDs is most of them went bad (they have limited shelf life and need to be stored in very specific conditions) and that Clinton's missile strike in the late 90s supposedly hit them pretty hard. This coming after the war from Tariq Aziz and a few other. Granted, these people aren't the most trustworthy, but then again neither is our president, so take it as you see it. As for why Saddam would resist inspections and act like he still had stockpiles of WMDs, it actually kinda fits in with his personality. He likes seeming like the big, powerful guy in the ME, he likes to look bigger than he is. In retrospect, there was no way Saddam (and his ego) was ever going to let the world think that he was toothless.
Failing to plead
with a throat full of dust
Life falls asleep
in a fetal position.
with a throat full of dust
Life falls asleep
in a fetal position.
- cavalierlwt
-
- Posts: 2840
- Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 12:54 pm
by cavalierlwt » Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:23 pm
Originally posted by PudriK
Congrads all for keeping this civil so far.
Not sure what else to say. We went in, didn't really need to, but fuck, we're there now. And it's not black and white. Sure, our pretenses may be a bit fishy, but we are accomplishing something good, introducing democracy and rule-of-law to a part of the world that has been too long without--even if that wasn't our original goal. We have to stick to it. Like typical Americans, we didn't take responsibility for questioning our president when he pushed us in, and now we aren't taking responsbility for being there... it's our mess, we have to clean it up.
The irony is, while everyone is assuming that the reason we're pulling troops out is because of political pressure, there are many practical reasons to do so as well... as a column in The Atlantic pointed out last month, it kind of forces the Iraqis to step up to the plate if they know we're leaving. Might put a little more hitch in their giddyup. Not to mention what Abizaid has said about reducing our presence in order to reduce the footprint of occupation. Too bad, if it works, that the political pressure from home will probably be the reason and will take the credit.
Pulling out, drawing down, whatever the term is an *excellent* strategy. So is a timetable. You're right, we are there now, so we have to deal with it. The thing is, we have to make the Iraqi army either sink or swim. If they are really in it for the long haul, they aren't going to 'lose' to an opposition that is only capable of car bombs and sniper attacks. It's not like the insurgents have an air force, tanks, etc. For some screwed up reason, someone, whoever, decided *not* to have an exit strategy. Just keep going, doin g the same stupid thing day after day. If we pull out, we remove the excuse that they are fighting invaders. Then it's just a fight between Sunni minority and Shiite majority (60%). The Kurds will hold down their section of Iraq no problem. Now, if the Iraqi army just completely folds, then they were never going to fight in the first place, not if we stayed there for ten years, twenty years. Think about our revolution. The french helped out, but they didn't need to babysit us for years and years. They just helped us against the brits (sorry Parrot, no offense intended) and left the rest to us.
by ferret963 » Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:35 pm
I know we all don't like to vomit, I sure don't, but when I vomit I make sure to clean it up. See, the idea behind this is that, fresh vomit on my floor is full of bacteria and other littlie nastys that I don't like, and if left in a relatively mothering state like the floor they could have potential to grow and become more numerous and possibly re-infecting me with this horrible sickness. I don't think are decision to clean up the floor should be based on why and how the vomit came out, more so, why and how we should or shouldn't take care of it!
You may say that this painted a horible picture for you, but to adnosium have I been hearing about the middle east and polotics, so I thought why not use some diffrent words.
You may say that this painted a horible picture for you, but to adnosium have I been hearing about the middle east and polotics, so I thought why not use some diffrent words.
- cavalierlwt
-
- Posts: 2840
- Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 12:54 pm
by cavalierlwt » Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:20 pm
YUmmmm, twinkies.......
Failing to plead
with a throat full of dust
Life falls asleep
in a fetal position.
with a throat full of dust
Life falls asleep
in a fetal position.
by =ender= » Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:05 pm
Originally posted by Iron City Man
Yeah, I almost ate one of those Anthrax Twinkies until I noticed it had gone past the expiration date.
Twinkies never expire. They'll be fresh for millions of years.
Move as a team, never move alone. Welcome to the Terrordome!
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 9 guests