Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:20 pm
If that was the case, the big push would be to create more native engineers. Once again, I'm not against free markets, I've even come to grips with the whole outsourcing thing.
My problem, and I will say this as clearly as I can: I don't believe these guys are worried about a worker gap. I JUST DON'T. I think they are spouting bullshit. Bill Gate is running the same line of bullshit. He's a major outsourcer of jobs to Inida, yet he criticizes US kids for not going to college for engineering. Does he say 'Go to school for engineering, graduate, and come work for me at M$ for a good wage'? No he doesn't. If Indian engineers are cheaper and better for the bottom line, then why encourage US kids to get engineering degrees??
As for the Baby Boomer/Social Security situation, we could never cover that topic on with a few posts. But to make it short, I know about the ratio. The ratio is only a problem because of the nature of the system (pay as you go vs private accts type system). If we artificially pump up the population to cover Baby Boomers, what are we going to do when these new citizens retire? We will then have to import tons more people artificially to cover the next wave, we will forever be trying to increase our population artificially.
My solution, deal with as it happens. If there is a shortage, open the gates a little, pump education a little, etc. These problems solve themselves because people go where the money/work is.
The reason these guys are making statement *NOW* is because they want to bring in people *NOW* when there is MOST DEFINITELY NO SHORTAGE. I must yell that last part, I repeat is no shortage of engineers, programmers, IT people in this country right now. There's a group that make a report to the govt every year about this, and every year they say there is a shortage. This is because this group is funded by the industries, who have their own needs and agendas.
So, to wrap it up, I think it's more hype than reality, I'll believe it when I see it, but we can deal with it *when* it happens.
Also, true the article just says workers, but I will bet my life that they are not talking about plain generic workers. This is just my opinion, but I've seen enough of the bullshit for the last couple of years that it just sets off my bullshit detectors as soon as I hear certain phrases.
It's tough discussion, It would be nice to really hear this stuff in depth during Presidential debates, but I guess I'm just a silly dreamer for hoping for that
My problem, and I will say this as clearly as I can: I don't believe these guys are worried about a worker gap. I JUST DON'T. I think they are spouting bullshit. Bill Gate is running the same line of bullshit. He's a major outsourcer of jobs to Inida, yet he criticizes US kids for not going to college for engineering. Does he say 'Go to school for engineering, graduate, and come work for me at M$ for a good wage'? No he doesn't. If Indian engineers are cheaper and better for the bottom line, then why encourage US kids to get engineering degrees??
As for the Baby Boomer/Social Security situation, we could never cover that topic on with a few posts. But to make it short, I know about the ratio. The ratio is only a problem because of the nature of the system (pay as you go vs private accts type system). If we artificially pump up the population to cover Baby Boomers, what are we going to do when these new citizens retire? We will then have to import tons more people artificially to cover the next wave, we will forever be trying to increase our population artificially.
My solution, deal with as it happens. If there is a shortage, open the gates a little, pump education a little, etc. These problems solve themselves because people go where the money/work is.
The reason these guys are making statement *NOW* is because they want to bring in people *NOW* when there is MOST DEFINITELY NO SHORTAGE. I must yell that last part, I repeat is no shortage of engineers, programmers, IT people in this country right now. There's a group that make a report to the govt every year about this, and every year they say there is a shortage. This is because this group is funded by the industries, who have their own needs and agendas.
So, to wrap it up, I think it's more hype than reality, I'll believe it when I see it, but we can deal with it *when* it happens.
Also, true the article just says workers, but I will bet my life that they are not talking about plain generic workers. This is just my opinion, but I've seen enough of the bullshit for the last couple of years that it just sets off my bullshit detectors as soon as I hear certain phrases.
It's tough discussion, It would be nice to really hear this stuff in depth during Presidential debates, but I guess I'm just a silly dreamer for hoping for that
Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:36 pm
Originally posted by Alofwar
I have heard of William of Orange, but he if he was a foreign invader he didnt suceed, the last time England was conquered was 1066
Actualy he did succeed. His line, the hannoverian line, replaced the jacobite line of kings and thus we had/have german monarchs. The reason you have never heard of it is that history is written by the victors and those who opposed the jacobites and supported william named the invasion 'the glorious revolution' which it was not.
Originally posted by Alofwar
The first people to settle in Britain were Woads,
omg you need to stop watching King Arthur. The woads were made up by that film they didn't exist other than that they loosely approximate to the picts. 'the woads' was an invented slang term for the picts invented just for that film and derives from the face paint woad which they used to paint their faces (insert silly mel gibson face here).
Originally posted by Alofwar
Then the Saxons, then finally the Normans in 1066
Ignoring the vikings who conquered us in 1016 and stayed till 1035 and as I mentioned before William of Orange in 1689. Semantically also Henry Tudor was a welsh man whose army was largely made of foreign mercenaries so I guess the battle of Bosworth (1485) when he removed the plantagenant line could technically be termed an invasion as well.
Originally posted by Alofwar
Ok there wasn't that much with the Normans, they weren't so friskey and times had moved on a bit, but u get the point.
Blood doesn't make culture. If you are talking about culture getting watered down I'd call you idealistic but mislead. If you are talking about bloodlines being watered down I'd call you borderline psychotic.... Our bloodlines in this country are even less rigidly defined than our cultural identity is...
Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:11 pm
I know they werent called woads, just i couldn't think of what they were called, but they did have "Woad warriors" which i know comes from the paint they would wear in battle.
I forgot about the vikings but i was talking basically those who conquered and settled and basically became one culture with the current population.Although the vikings were here long enough to make a difference.
Now i don't British blood was getting watered down and i don't think it today, infact i think in those cases it was somewhat of good thing and necesary to create modern Britain.
Now what bothers me today is that culture isn't merging the way it did back then, theirs is trying to take over. Now i know that most aren't trying to take over, but it's when we have to worry about offending them with things like christmas decorations and when you want to hire someone for a communications job involving talking to customers over the phone and you can't put "Must have a good standard of English" on the advert.
Whats more, it's not a big invasion where they come in massive numbers and quickly merge in, it's happening ever so slowly, we can't stop it because we will be called racist and international law.
Put it this way i'm one the few who see's the truth, all the people of the world "CAN'T" live in harmony.What has to happen for everyone to live in peace, is a big war, one to truly to end all wars and unite the world as one country, only then would i accept change. It is a very sad and disterbing truth but i just can't see things getting better without it. I don't want a big war, we can co-exist as things are, just not the way Liberal hippies want. I could go on alot more but can't right now.
I forgot about the vikings but i was talking basically those who conquered and settled and basically became one culture with the current population.Although the vikings were here long enough to make a difference.
Now i don't British blood was getting watered down and i don't think it today, infact i think in those cases it was somewhat of good thing and necesary to create modern Britain.
Now what bothers me today is that culture isn't merging the way it did back then, theirs is trying to take over. Now i know that most aren't trying to take over, but it's when we have to worry about offending them with things like christmas decorations and when you want to hire someone for a communications job involving talking to customers over the phone and you can't put "Must have a good standard of English" on the advert.
Whats more, it's not a big invasion where they come in massive numbers and quickly merge in, it's happening ever so slowly, we can't stop it because we will be called racist and international law.
Put it this way i'm one the few who see's the truth, all the people of the world "CAN'T" live in harmony.What has to happen for everyone to live in peace, is a big war, one to truly to end all wars and unite the world as one country, only then would i accept change. It is a very sad and disterbing truth but i just can't see things getting better without it. I don't want a big war, we can co-exist as things are, just not the way Liberal hippies want. I could go on alot more but can't right now.
Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:33 pm
That one thing that has really worked out for America, and I couldn't even guess why it has worked out so well. The immigrants that come to America really adopt our culture, and at the same time add some of their own, in a really good way. There's always going to be problems or exceptions, but for some reason this has really worked out well for the US. Some of the most patriotic people I know are people who once lived in India, Vietnam etc. They take their love of country a thousand times more serious than so many people whose ancestors have been here for a 200 years.
If anyone has a theory why it's worked out so well for us, I'm all ears.
If anyone has a theory why it's worked out so well for us, I'm all ears.
Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:35 pm
Reading about the history of Britain is facinating...
"c.495 - The Germanic King Cerdic and his son, Cynric, land somewhere on the south coast, probably near the Hampshire-Dorset border. Their followers establish the beginnings of the Kingdom of Wessex. King Gwynllyw of Gwynllwg carries off Princess Gwladys of Brycheiniog. War between the two kingdoms narrowly avoided by the intercession of the legendary Arthur. The couple marry."
Sadly, their lineage died early, due to a severe shortage of y's and w's in the 6th century.
"c.495 - The Germanic King Cerdic and his son, Cynric, land somewhere on the south coast, probably near the Hampshire-Dorset border. Their followers establish the beginnings of the Kingdom of Wessex. King Gwynllyw of Gwynllwg carries off Princess Gwladys of Brycheiniog. War between the two kingdoms narrowly avoided by the intercession of the legendary Arthur. The couple marry."
Sadly, their lineage died early, due to a severe shortage of y's and w's in the 6th century.
Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:05 pm
Originally posted by Alofwar
Now what bothers me today is that culture isn't merging the way it did back then, theirs is trying to take over.
That's what they all said; the celts when the romans arrived, the romans when the saxons arrived, the saxons when the vikings arrived, the vikings when king alfred arrived (:D), the english when the normans arrived etc.... Change is not something you can stop. It's not something I want to try and stop either.
Half the things you probably consider part of English culture were not even around 200 years ago. When people first immigrate they always take their own culture with them that's natural. But what you end up with 3 generations later is an amalgamation of the old and the new both thouroughly english and yet also tied in with their own roots. I can't see this process ever changing. I think it's just paranoia suggesting that their culture is trying to take over.
I for one am glad we're not all morris dancing around drinking mead and pissing on the floor...
Incidentally that's a highly suspect timeline of events Chacal. A lot of that comes from Welsh 'historian' Geoffrey of Monmouth 500 years later (c.1100)and he pretty much just made shit up
Thats why all the names are all w's and y's they are all welsh 
Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:25 pm
Originally posted by Alofwar
...but they did have "Woad warriors"...
Is that the Elmer Fudd movie about not having enough fuel in a post-apocalyptic desert world? (Sorry for the Spam, I couldn't help myself)
Anyhow - I do think that there are just far too many people sitting around on their collective asses pissing away tax dollars. Make these idiots work, or throw them into the military. I don't care if they don't want to be there. If I can't sit home all day and play Guild Wars or BF2, then Joey WelfareCheck shouldn't be able to either. Earn those government dollars, scumbag.
This does not apply to the people who are physically unable to work. They should form an American-based tech support hotline so we can stop outsourcing that to India and Mexico. Nothing worse than talking to someone with a horribly thick accent who says his name is "Mark" or "Phil".
On the same lines of the original topic - I know for a fact that GE hires boatloads of engineers from India, but the push in the last few years has been to consider American candidates first. GPA still matters quite a lot, and the Indian/Chinese/Korean candidates tend to have better scores... I've already said too much
Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:48 pm
Wow! I learned a lot about British history today !
Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:50 pm
due to a severe shortage of y's and w's in the 6th century
:roflmao:
Woad warriors were swordsman from ancient Britain. They didn't wear baody armor, like most tribal warriors. They covered themselves in blue paint made from woad leaves.
Its was suppose to make them look scary and scare the enemy, but unknown to them it could help close and heal wounds, so if wounded, you would have a much improved chance of survival.
There's alot of British history, it starts with the Roman invasion, before then it was just seperate tribes fighting each other, once the Romans left it took a while for the tribes to unite as charcal said. Theirs 10 times as much history as America. search for a BBC tv series called "History of Britain"
There's also "Battlefield Britain" This only goes back to 1066, but it covers the most key battles in British history.
Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:06 am
Originally posted by cavalierlwt
If that was the case, the big push would be to create more native engineers. Once again, I'm not against free markets, I've even come to grips with the whole outsourcing thing.
My problem, and I will say this as clearly as I can: I don't believe these guys are worried about a worker gap. I JUST DON'T. I think they are spouting bullshit. Bill Gate is running the same line of bullshit. He's a major outsourcer of jobs to Inida, yet he criticizes US kids for not going to college for engineering. Does he say 'Go to school for engineering, graduate, and come work for me at M$ for a good wage'? No he doesn't. If Indian engineers are cheaper and better for the bottom line, then why encourage US kids to get engineering degrees??
Better education was the second part of their message.
Bill Gates gives a lot of money to education programs in the US (Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation), and has spoken extensively on the need to improve science and math education in the US.
Originally posted by Padre
This does not apply to the people who are physically unable to work. They should form an American-based tech support hotline so we can stop outsourcing that to India and Mexico. Nothing worse than talking to someone with a horribly thick accent who says his name is "Mark" or "Phil".
I heard a report a year ago that several companies were outsourcing to middle America... costs of liviing, and thus wages, were lower, and they're of course native speakers. It's happening.