World War 3 imminent

by **Alofwar** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:31 am

Actually most of them are innocent, something like 93% are, they are just tortured until they give the answer you want hear, then they are tortured some more.

I do not call them POWs because the US isnt at war, you can only be at war with a country, not an organisation. Bush is scaring you into believeing its a war, so he can get with anything, because your in a "state of war".

Even Bush recently declared that the geneva convention does apply, and they will be given a fair trial.

An dotn terrorist torture? I say "Do as your enemy and you become your enemy"

by **PraiseA||ah** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:42 am

If they are indeed terrorists as the state is claiming, then proving that legally should not be an issue. Holding them without legal rights, representation and formal charges is a criminal act in and of itself. It doesn't matter that the State is carrying it out. Kidnapping is illegal and what this is tantamount to. There are laws that the US is violating - no question about it. Since someone of very loose morality (Rumsfield) is in charge of the Pentagon, people in the military seem to have relaxed their own morality. I'm speaking specifically of the US sanctioned torture of detainees.

Regardless of how you feel about the terrorists, torture isn't justified, legal or even moral. We say we have the moral high ground yet go and pull crap like this. As a red blooded American, I'm outraged that this is being perpertrated on my behalf. Charge them, provide legitimate legal counsel and put them on trial in a legitimate court of law.

by **SavageParrot** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:43 am

Originally posted by PraiseA||ah
If they are indeed terrorists as the state is claiming, then proving that legally should not be an issue. Holding them without legal rights, representation and formal charges is a criminal act in and of itself. It doesn't matter that the State is carrying it out. Kidnapping is illegal and what this is tantamount to. There are laws that the US is violating - no question about it. Since someone of very loose morality (Rumsfield) is in charge of the Pentagon, people in the military seem to have relaxed their own morality. I'm speaking specifically of the US sanctioned torture of detainees.

Regardless of how you feel about the terrorists, torture isn't justified, legal or even moral. We say we have the moral high ground yet go and pull crap like this. As a red blooded American, I'm outraged that this is being perpertrated on my behalf. Charge them, provide legitimate legal counsel and put them on trial in a legitimate court of law.

Bingo. Either they are terrorists and it can be proved or they are pows. Either way there are strict rules for what can be done to them either via the constitution for the first or via the Geneva convention for the second. You can't pick and choose the little bits of laws you like, that's not how it works. Guantanamo is Illegal under US law and illegal under the rules of war. The US is acting like a tin pot dictatorship pulling this shit and the really arrogant thing about it is that you are doing it live on TV.

How do you think it would play the other way round? If they kept americans without trial in pens and subjected them to the same treatment. What would you think? Even without the executions would you be happy about the plight of your people?

Being anti-guantamo is not about being anti-american in fact it's the oppostite. Being anti-guantanamo is about being pro american. Pro all the things that america is supposed to be about: pro freedom, the rule of law, due process, humanity. If you sell out the values you are trying to defend then in the end wouldn't it be a completely hollow victory.

by **Major SONAR** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:56 am

torture isn't justified, legal or even moral.

Charge them, provide legitimate legal counsel and put them on trial in a legitimate court of law.

I agree with you.

by **cavalierlwt** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:33 am

I think some of the anger from some us, myself included stems from a sense of onesidedness in the situation. I don't want real torture to happen (walking on broken glass, being beaten) and I don't believe that that is the standard. Some of the things I hear referred to as torture, I don't consider torture: being kept in a cool (not freezing) room for a few hours, being blindfolded, some sleep deprivation etc. It's not nice treatment, but it's not quite getting your nails ripped out. So, I'd like to see some rational distinction made between the two. I agree, we need to prosecute them or send them on their way. I don't want to see innocents stuck there.

The anger (for me) comes in when there's a perception that we are constantly being held to higher standard *and* being told what evil assholes we are generally speaking.

If we are 'the bad guys' than let's go and do bad things, I mean REALLY bad things, in peace.
Give us the 'Bad Guy Freedom' if that's the way you see us.
Let us line up whole blocks of people and shoot them, or rip their tongues out publically and such, just write it off as typical Americans being evil, like everyone did for Russia in Afghanistan, or like they currently do for anything insurgents/Palestinians etc do.
Or you can act like we're the Good Guys and maybe give a gently nudge when we cross the line and lower our standards.
I don't see a gentle nudge, I see people crowing about naked ass pyramids with far, far greater shock and anger than they do the Holocaust. Let's be honest, the world was far more outraged over ass pyramids than they were when people got their heads sawed off with a knife.

It's a hard point to make accurately, I'm not much of a writer so it's hard to really express it. If you were on the receiving end of it, you would understand.

by **Major SONAR** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:43 am

I'd settle for us acting like we keep telling everyone else to act. Leading from the front not getting dragged down to a lower level.

I agree with you SP. I think it's a shame that American soldiers would torture prisoners and recently rape Iraqi women. I don't condone these actions....

On the other hand, I think the media fails to show all the good things (i.e. rebuilding roads, schools, utilities, etc.). I think it's much more dramatic to show scenes of torture and rape.

Here's the thing... I don't believe half of what is shown on the news these days. There are so many lies and deceptiions, it's hard to determine the truth without actually being there. You cited ONE prisoner who claims he was tortured by Americans. I'm not saying he wasn't, but on the other hand he could be lying. Maybe he was tortured by someone other than Americans or maybe he was injured and CLAIMED he was tortured, or maybe he was actually tortured. I find it difficult to determine what actually happened without seeing it firsthand.

Looking back at your quote and PA's quotes from my previous post. I agree with you, we shouldn't be doing these things (torture in particular) and we should not stoop to their level.

by **Major SONAR** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:50 am

Let's be honest, the world was far more outraged over ass pyramids than they were when people got their heads sawed off with a knife.

I agree and that pisses me off. For some reason Americans are held to a MUCH higher standard than they are.

Why is that, do you supposed?

by **SavageParrot** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:10 am

Originally posted by Major SONAR
On the other hand, I think the media fails to show all the good things (i.e. rebuilding roads, schools, utilities, etc.). I think it's much more dramatic to show scenes of torture and rape.

Definately agree with you there. Even media like the BBC which is not supposed to be in the business of making money shows only what they think will get the best rating or line them up for the journalism award next year etc...

Repairing sewers just isn't sexy enough to make the cut.

They also never really show the horror of war either. The people torn in half by gunfire etc. What they show is a mixture of the gungho (look at us riding on tanks) footage combined with some after math (look at the rubble) footage and pretend it's the whole story.

Originally posted by Major SONAR
IHere's the thing... I don't believe half of what is shown on the news these days. There are so many lies and deceptiions, it's hard to determine the truth without actually being there. You cited ONE prisoner who claims he was tortured by Americans. I'm not saying he wasn't, but on the other hand he could be lying. Maybe he was tortured by someone other than Americans or maybe he was injured and CLAIMED he was tortured, or maybe he was actually tortured. I find it difficult to determine what actually happened without seeing it firsthand.

There is more than one claimant but I take your point. I would never believe them fully but there's enough common ground to prove systematic abuse as opposed to the odd occasion. Believing either story in entirety is a little foolhardy.

by **Alofwar** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:18 am

It because we love negativity. Another example is GCSE grades going up. Instead of were getting smarter (which were not, were getting dumber), or teaching techniques are getting better its "GCSE's are too easy". It just makes good TV to have negativity.

America is often held to higher standards, because it built itself up on having higher standards.

by **cavalierlwt** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:25 am

America hasn't built itself up on having higher standards. Every country thinks very highly of itself, as they should.
I think other countries have built a mythology around America that is insane. We're just a country, like any other, trying to do well for itself. Yeah, we make gung ho American movies and such, but that's for our entertainment. I have no idea why the rest of the world believes in it, or holds us to it, or even watches it in the first place. Our politicians talk flowery bullshit about freedom and democracy, why the hell do other people take any of that seriously? Politicians are politicians. You guys have them, you *know* they're full of shit. The world needs to end it's fascination/obsession/love/hate relationship with America.
I have no idea why expect anything more of us than China, Russia, Japan, Britain, Germany, France etc.
It's like immigration, I have nothing against immigration, but I see these people that come here (and Brits know what I mean) because they want a better life, a different life, whatever and they admire our society/economy, etc.
Why bother coming here? If you know what you like, what is better, than reshape your country to fit that. Want freedom? make it happen. Want democracy? Make it happen. Want fast food and porn? make it happen!
That may seem naive, but all us in the West made our country to suit our needs, more or less. There was nothing magical in the water that allowed this to happen.
Now people elsewhere look at us like we were lucky enough to have magic beans or fairy godmothers, and we are now imbued with some great power and responsibility.

by **Alofwar** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:01 pm

Well its because America keeps championing the ideas of democracy and freedom, then failing to demonstrate them themselves.

And i agree with you on Immigration. When the 10 new nation states joined the EU, Britain was about the only major country to agree to allow workers from these nations in. The government estimated that 15,000 a year arrive. WRONG!!! In the 2 years since the 10 countries joined, over 600,000 workers have arrived here, 300,000 of them from Poland. As a result i cant get my first part time job. I have applied well over 20 stores and cafe's, and not even an interview, and whenever i go in their for shopping, i see lots of people from Poland and Eastern Europe working there.

"THEY TOOK OUR JEEBS"

by **cavalierlwt** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:18 pm

everyone talks a big game then doesn't live up to it. Look at France. According to the French, their country is an egalitarian nirvana.
No one is holding the French to their bullshit like they do to us though.

by **cavalierlwt** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:25 pm

Originally posted by Alofwar
I ahve applied well over 20 stores and cafe's, and not even an interview, and whenever i go in their for shopping, i see lots of people from Poland and Eastern Europe working there.

"THEY TOOK OUR JEEBS"

I feel for you. It's weird though, I look at these people and think if they all went back and just changed their country, emulate the best of what they've seen out in the world, they could really improve things.
India may have serious problems, but look at the way they've been transforming themselves in just the last ten years or so. It's just a start, but give them 30 years or so.

by **PraiseA||ah** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:28 pm

America is held to a higher standard because we PREACH a higher standard. I mean, it's really quite simple. The rhetoric coming from our politicians is rather strong and when we don't live up to it ourselves... Not to mention our Constitution and the reverence we have for it. Positioned as the world leader as we are and given our penchant for sticking our noses into EVERYONE else's business... It should come as no surprise that we are held to standards we shout to the world we hold them to.

Torture. Is torture, is torture. I suppose if I had to choose and had my 'rathers', I would rather be sleep deprived than be physically tortured to an inch of my life. But that's not really the point. Torture is illegal by all the laws We The People of The Republic abide by and believe in. It is also against international treaties. It's like saying, 'it's not really stealing because I only took a little bit.' Well, if it wasn't yours and you took it without permission, no matter how small - you stole and are a thief. Facts are facts. Don't let the political hoo haa blind you to the facts. That's what I meant about Rumsfield. 'Oh I stand for hours at a time.' BS! Making people do these things is in fact, torture. It is done specifically because it IS torture and weakens a person's will. Just like any other form of torture. And even if (and it most definitely isn't) this were ok, any information derived from torture is not dependable anyway. This has been a known fact for a very very long time. People will tell you what you want to hear just to make it stop.

by **cavalierlwt** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:59 pm

Originally posted by PraiseA||ah
America is held to a higher standard because we PREACH a higher standard. I mean, it's really quite simple. The rhetoric coming from our politicians is rather strong and when we don't live up to it ourselves... Not to mention our Constitution and the reverence we have for it. Positioned as the world leader as we are and given our penchant for sticking our noses into EVERYONE else's business... It should come as no surprise that we are held to standards we shout to the world we hold them to.

Who doesn't preach a higher standard??? I pointed out that France is more than a little preachy, and has been for hundreds of years, and they don't live up to their big talk. Nearly every big country talks a big game and doesn't live up to it. I say again, why is America held to our rhetoric and nearly no one else? How are we positioned as 'the world leader' out of curiousity? Yeah, I don't agree with the monkeying around we do, but so, so many others do it as well, yet no one calls them on it. You know I'm not an ultra-Right wing God-bless-America-and-no-one-else type of guy, but I do see very weird, unhealthy relationship between America and the world that is a kind of two way street. Almost like a co-dependancy (to use a drug/alcohol term). The thing with that is both sides need to see it and stop it for it to work.

World War 3 imminent

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