Off topic, but don't go too far overboard - after all, we are watching...heh.
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Re: Changing Driving Habits?

Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:37 am

A/C vs. Windows Down: You save more gas driving with the A/C on than with the windows down (original episode summary). Answer: it depends on the speed you're driving at.
from:
http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2005/10/episode_38_mythbusters_reviste.html

Windows down vs. air conditioning
"Urban puzzle": it is more efficient, on a hot day, to run with the A/C on and windows up than to run with windows down (b/c of increasing car's drag).

Computer-based mpg measurements: * 11.7/11.8 with A/C on and windows up * 11.7/11.8 with A/C off and windows up * 11.3 with A/C off and windows down

So, according to the computer, it's better to use A/C with windows up.

This was too quick and easy for TV, so they decided to stage a seven hour marathon, race-til-you're-empty duel, with Jamie driving an SUV with A/C on and Adam driving an SUV with windows down. Though, once the safety inspector intervened, it was no longer a seven-hour marathon, it was a bit slower (45mph instead of 55mph), and a lot shorter (only 5 gallons each).

Jamie's A/C car ran out of gas first -- Adam's windows down SUV ran for another 30 laps -- completely contradicting the computer mpg estimate. Computer estimate based on air flow into the engine, so it would appear that it is unable to properly model the difference between A/C and windows down.

Mythbusted
from:
http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2004/11/mythbusters_boom_lift_catapult.html

Re: Changing Driving Habits?

Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:34 am

http://www.epa.gov/oms/rfgecon.htm

Air con can lower fuel economy by up to 21% in extreme heat according to that. Which sounds around right. But then driving at 55mph with the windows down clocks in at about 20 percent as well so, no a lot of difference.

http://www.fuel-economy.co.uk/toptips.shtml

How you drive can affect it just as much tbh. No point suffering the heat to save money and then pissing cash away by over-revving and negating any money saved.

Re: Changing Driving Habits?

Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:29 pm

I hate being such a pessimist about my own country but hearing people complain everyday about the same thing gets old fast. Wake up people, we are only catching up with the rest of the world. Gas prices have been high in other countries for a long time now. As China continues to advance and gain ground on America their demand for gas will only increase and we will see the price of gas continue to rise.

I'm not a hippy or some avid green activist but turning towards renewable resources is the only way to solve this problem at the pump. If it takes gas prices sky rocketing and spill-over into consumer good prices to wake Americans up, then so be it. Going green in the transportation sector needs to happen sooner rather than later. It's hard to see where we are headed right now. The number one most in demand car right now is the Toyota Prius, which looks like a good sign. However, the number two most in demand car is a Lexus that only gets 14 mpg both highway and city, I forget which model.

As for myself, I drive a 94 Chrysler and usually have to fill up every 2 1/2 to 3 weeks. Cost me $55 dollars today but I'm not complaining. I work at Home Depot so I see a lot of people who own trucks that shouldn't own them. They buy them for the look or because they've always wanted one and never use it as a truck. Now they can't get rid of it because they won't get jack squat for them. And they suffer at the pump. It's apparently all about having that image of "success" in America. And now all those idiots are suffering. Good for them! And as far as the a/c vs. windowns down argument goes, not driving saves you the most at the pump.

Going green is relatively expensive at the moment because it's a new thing. As with all new things they are expensive when they first come out. Up the demand and supply will increase and prices will lower. We shouldn't let the government or corporations define us but we should define them and they should evolve with our moral and ethical standards. If the gas companies want to be ethical they need to change over to renewable resources, get the greatest stronghold in that sector, and make money that way. Sometime in my lifetime, I hope, we will have moved fully or almost completely away from oil. These companies can still make billions if only they invest more now and get a strong hold in the green sectors. At least they will be half ethical.

Re: Changing Driving Habits?

Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:10 pm

also the oil companys dont care if they leave us bleeding out the ass aslong as they make there own pockets fat.why should they change and suffer a potential loss... the way i see it a person only needs so much money in a lifetime to live comfortable..any one who makes more that that certain undefined amount tends to be waistfull... why cant we mandate that some of these enormous proffets go to something usefull? where is all this surplus money going? why would anyone need to make more than 1 million a year? i have heard of some oil companys making over 100 million in a years time... why cant we make them pay the taxes for the rest of us.. the tax burdon rest almost tottaly on the shoulders of the people...why should i have to pay taxes just like the guys who make more money in a year than all my extended family will make in there lifetimes combined??this shit we have turned democracy into is a discrace..i love this country but this system we have now makes communisim seem like a great idea.. the thing that gets me is the rising cost are cause sometimes by the goverment.. like thwe minimum wage increase.. if you dont want to live off of minumum wage.. you might wanna learn a skill a trade of a craft of some sorts. something to make yourself valuable but i read a sign today that said by this time next year the min wage will be almost 7.15 an hour.. and all i wonder is how much my lunch will cost then? all because some pissed off resturant worker isnt happy with the pay scale.. instad of learning a trade or skill?
now before you guys flame me for this.. i would like to say that i understand there are circumstances that are beyond some peoples control i can understand disability of a illness but the thing thats got this country so screwd up in the first place is special concideration.... mind you im shooting myself in the foor for saying these things.. my wife got laid off, we are broke. and in wic and foodstamps and im trying to keep a house over my familys head and keep things togeather but who is paying for the food that i eat? all fo us.. do i agree with the foodstamp program yes and no..its a noble idea the way it was created, to help those in hardships.. yeah thats great..but i know of too many who abuse this program also.. i know someone who has been drawing welfair foodstamps disability and unemployment to 10 to 15 years and who isnot disabled and couldnt care at all about bettering there situation... i find the american way now is to let someone else fix there problums than to do anything about it themselves.. and thats not the way to get anything done..there is a reason that latino labor has taken over the housing market.. they have a work ethic that the americans have lost..these guys risk it all to come here and work for unfair wages and substandard living conditions.because they have the hunger to provide for themselvs and for there familys. these americans today would never tolorate these conditions.. but a few of them sure dont mind capitolizing off these guys to kane there pockets fatter with out lifting a finger........ sorry to go so far off topic... but shit i dont see any hope for this country under this goverment system..

Re: Changing Driving Habits?

Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:56 pm

Oil company profits: Some companies are making hundreds of billions in a years time, depending on how you calculate it. For example, Exxon-Mobil pulled in somewhere around $178 Billion over the past year in gross profit. Knock that down to operating income, and it's down to around $80 Billion. Knock it down to net income, and it's down to $40 billion. The media loves to report the gross profits, but that's like your paycheck - what you theoretically get, before the gummint gets it's take - income tax (federal and, where applicable, state and local (yes, I know it's different in other countries, but we're talking about the US here)), your mandatory contributions to Medicare and Social Security (another 8% or so), etc. Since you need someplace to live (much as an oil company needs business locations to operate), knock off your housing costs (mortgage/rent, real estate taxes (if appropriate), operating costs (I.e. utilities)), and, for those who work outside the house, the expenses associated with working (vehicle for commuting purposes (car payment, insurance, gas, maintenance, et al), work clothing (for someone not provided with a shirt, name tag and a hair net), professional development, etc.). Throw off the long term professional development debt (thinking like college loans). What's left over is essentially the same as net income - money you have to spend on things you want to spend it on.

By the way, Exxon Mobil paid about $32 billion in taxes last year - that's corporate taxes, not to include what their employees paid in income taxes, which isn't included in the corporate taxes. Exxon Mobil has 5.28 Billion shares of stock outstanding, which is owned by the public, either directly or through investment in mutual funds, retirement plans, etc. Last year, Exxon Mobil paid $1.60 per share in dividends, which means about $8.5 billion transferred to shareholders, both individual and in the form of mutual funds. And the shareholders paid taxes on the dividend income as well, but that was out of their end.

A company could pay the taxes for their employees (some do, as a matter of fact), but that would typically mean the overhead for an employee (typically 35% on top of what your salary is) would go up another 30% or so. How many people really think that a corporation would end up paying you 30% more and eating 30% in taxes? I'd bet that salaries would take a cut across the board now that they're paying the income tax directly.

By the way, in reality, the rich do get hammered harder by taxes. The top 2% of incomes (over $200K AGI/year) make 29% of the declared income and pay over 50% of the personal income taxes.

Donkey_nutz, you've got my utmost sympathy and respect for your situation. I completely respect the fact that you don't want the government giving you assistance, but I'm glad it's there for you to use in a moment of need. I'd rather see a program that provides assistance to people to help them through the tough moments, especially when those folks, like yourself, want to work, improve their position in life, and get ahead on your own efforts, not as the result of handouts.

I'd agree the Latino labor force does things many 'Mericans don't want to do. I had a crew of folks painting my house back in May and there was a lot of Spanish spoken and very little English, but they got here, got to work and got done in a lot less time than it would have taken me to do even part of the project and it was done faster and better than I could have done it. My one issue with the Latino labor force has nothing to do with their work ethic, it has to do with taxes and costs...if they're getting paid under the table, then they're not paying taxes, which means shortfalls, particularly for the local government. As we've seen in some of the Latino areas around here, there are those within that community (and outside of it) who recognize the large sums of cash floating around and target the community, knowing they want to avoid police contact if they are not legally here. That means more crime, more injuries due to crime, more policing costs, and more costs to the hospitals, because they typically don't have health insurance and jack up health care costs. Hospitals, which don't always get paid by the illegals, increase costs across the board to the folks with insurance, which means we (and the companies that may pay some of our health insurance costs) pay more for health care while getting less. If they want to be here, let's find a way to integrate them into the system that benefits everyone. Germany had a guest worker system that brought in principally Turks, gave them legal residence and employment status, and had them pay taxes and get health insurance. That would be better for all, wouldn't it? Not necessarily a path to citizenship, but a means of being here legally.

Anyway, this is rambling, too. Bottom line: There are no easy answers. Increase costs to corporations by adding taxes, and they raise prices to the customers, so we pay the taxes indirectly. Increase personnel costs by having corporations/companies pay individual taxes, they either cut overall salaries or cut employees. Folks from other countries want to work here, find a path to let them do it while integrating them into the system (instead of hiding outside it) and have everyone benefit. Peace out and good luck Donkey.

Re: Changing Driving Habits?

Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:17 pm

Video worth listening to in its entirety'

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340274697167011147&hl=en

Re: Changing Driving Habits?

Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:29 am

Cleatus703 wrote:By the way, in reality, the rich do get hammered harder by taxes. The top 2% of incomes (over $200K AGI/year) make 29% of the declared income and pay over 50% of the personal income taxes.


A lot of these people are the small business owners (file as sole proprietor), and as you mentioned if you increase taxes on them, they will have to reduce expenses to stay in business, ie cut employees

Cleatus703 wrote:My one issue with the Latino labor force has nothing to do with their work ethic, it has to do with taxes and costs...if they're getting paid under the table, then they're not paying taxes, which means shortfalls, particularly for the local government.


Not to get too much more off topic, but this also applies to everyone who gets paid under the table. Like drug dealers, and prostitutes. Not all bad guys either. Like my friend that I pay to cut my grass, manly because I hate yard work, and many other people who get paid cash.

The answer, get rid of income tax and replace it with a national sales tax. It doesn't matter how you make your money. Everybody, and I do mean everybody pays taxes when they buy stuff, and honestly whats the point of making money if you don't spend it...

donkey_nutz wrote:why cant we make them pay the taxes for the rest of us..
because they will simply pass it on to the customer

donkey_nutz wrote: the thing that gets me is the rising cost are cause sometimes by the goverment.. like the minimum wage increase..
Good call, that drives up the cost for a lot of business which again they pass on to the consumer. Now that same person that got a raise really has less money in his pocket because everything costs more. The winner government, a minimum wage increase is just a tax increase. Think about how many people are on minimum wage on study says about 13 million people, they all pay taxes at the same rate as before but now they make more money therefor pay more taxes.



donkey_nutz wrote:my wife got laid off, we are broke. and in wic and foodstamps and im trying to keep a house over my familys head and keep things togeather but who is paying for the food that i eat?

My thoughts a prayers are with you. This is exactly what the programs were designed for, unfortunately some people make it a lifelong goal. I friend of mine works at social services here. He told me some of the people know they system better than his case workers. Several families are third generation on welfare, unbelievable.



donkey_nutz wrote:i find the american way now is to let someone else fix there problums than to do anything about it themselves...


Let me share a video that illustrate this point. I use this video in a class I teach about emergency preparedness. Don't wait on someone else to help you when you can help yourself.

Click here for Video

Re: Changing Driving Habits?

Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:50 am

Not gonna hack on you (much), but you've got a couple of quotes in your message that have my name on them but which are Donkey_nutz's comments.

Re: Changing Driving Habits?

Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:59 am

lol

Re: Changing Driving Habits?

Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:23 am

Fixed... I think

Re: Changing Driving Habits?

Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:04 am

donkey_nutz wrote:... i find the american way now is to let someone else fix there problums than to do anything about it themselves.. and thats not the way to get anything done...


It may seem a bit farfetched but in my psychology class we looked at how people react when they see someone in need of help, i.e. being mugged, attacked, etc. If there are more people around during an incident like these, then most people won't help. They feel because there are others around that someone else will step in to help the person in need. Sadly, everyone watching the situation unfold, all think the same way and diffuse the responsibility to one another. Nothing gets done because everyone thinks someone else will step in to help. That's where I feel this nation is at in all aspects. We are very good at complaining but not very good at finding a solution or making a change. Mainly I think this is because we feel like we don't have the power to make a difference.


"The answer, get rid of income tax and replace it with a national sales tax. It doesn't matter how you make your money. Everybody, and I do mean everybody pays taxes when they buy stuff, and honestly whats the point of making money if you don't spend it..."

I love this idea. I believe Mike Gravel and Ron Paul were for this, but I could be wrong. Sucks that the politicians with the most money always get heard and always find their way into office. Even though the politicians at the bottom with the least amount of money have the best ideas that are actually liberal. It's so funny watching Obama in his campaign talk about "change" and use the word "change" as his buzz word. That guy doesn't know real change if it bit him in the ass. He's a freaking conservative and this nation will never "change" if the American nation continues to refuse to educate themselves, truly educate themselves on their candidates and what real "change" means.

Re: Changing Driving Habits?

Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:00 pm

I was reading an article at work today, which was looking at change within an organization. The target of the overall article was the Intelligence Community, but it was drawing on examples from other arenas (military, private company, sports). Here's one of the examples it used and reflected the short-sightedness of those who seek change within the system:

[INDENT]The second conclusion must be an an express preference for instrumental thinking over institutional thinking. This is absolutely critical (and horribly difficult) in a time of environmental volatility. In the late 1930s, the chief of cavalry in the US army, MG John Herr, wrote the chief of staff recommending a significant increase in the number of horse cavalry regiments. He noted that the expansion of the battlefield had created a problem because it was impossible to increase the stamina of the horse proportionate to the growth of the battlefield. Herr’s recommendation was a system (called porteeing) in which the horses would be brought near the battlefield in trailers, where they would match up with troopers conveyed to the scene in trucks. At that point, the troops would mount and charge. It’s difficult to imagine that Kasserine Pass could have proved worse, but porteeing might have made that possible.

The point is that MG Herr was carrying out his orders, which were to make the cavalry relevant and effective in a future war. His plan was the best he could do within those terms of reference, narrowly conceived. The danger is that institutions will almost always see the future narrowly conceived, that is, assuming the future of the institution. One of Herr’s protégés, LTC George Patton, saw the problem differently, that is to say, in terms of how to make the army, not the cavalry, effective and relevant. He soon transferred to the new armor branch, to his own benefit and that of the nation.
[vii] [/INDENT]

If you're really interested in the whole article, it's [url=https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol52no2/commentary.html]here[URL]

The thing that strikes me about Obama's call for change is that he's not really changing anything, and, thus as Rand0m correctly notes, he's actually a conservative, seeking to avoid radical change to the system. A true liberal (someone who's seeking radical change to the system) would be looking at the entire system and asking, how could we do things differently, ignoring the existing context and working to completely revolutionize the way we do things, instead of making incremental changes that move commas around. For instance, his big plan for Social Security is to have a window in the collection of payroll taxes between the current cap (which is a little over $100K) to $200K and start recollecting the payroll taxes on the income over the $200K mark. That's not fixing what is broken or asking if Social Security is doing what it should be or even if we should be having a Social Security system. That's tweaking how much money comes in. It won't do anything to restructure the program or make it viable, just get more money in the front door for a little while.

Obama is like most national politicians...full of it. He's all for preserving a system which pushes the self-selected elite to the top of the heap, structuring political districts to ensure a win for one party or another, structuring campaign finance in a way which offers tremendous advantages to the incumbent but huge barriers to the challengers, and, in most ways, protecting the status quo while promising "change." And the media supports the status quo, too. Why, you ask? Because the hundreds of millions of dollars that get spent over the course of a campaign season are largely spent in the media buying ads. So they start the speculation ever earlier, cover the candidates ever longer, pump up the hype as much as they can so candidates have to spend more to stay competitive over a longer period of time, all so the money comes into the media corporations that use the public airwaves to make their money. The media is the last thing that wants change.

Enough, it's a holiday weekend. Fortunately, a long time ago, a bunch of guys got together and said "Enough" and took the country away from its rulers who felt they were ordained by God him/herself to reign supreme over others and we have the freedom to speak our minds now. Perhaps it's time for another Tea Party and a little real change...

Re: Changing Driving Habits?

Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:44 pm

Lord ZOG wrote:Video worth listening to in its entirety'

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340274697167011147&hl=en



That was a good watch Zog. Some interesting stuff.
I think Random, Cleteus, Donkey and LD make some good points. I think we can all agree that something just ain't right with "the world" these days. We (myself included) are all very good at pointing out the problems. Yet I am hard pressed to find someone with a solution to any of them. We are all stuck on that damn escalator and no one is trying to get off. :confused: Some people are trying to fix the escalator or find another working one. Mere bandaids until it hits the fan again.

Cleatus703 wrote: Perhaps it's time for another Tea Party and a little real change...


I had an idea for this. If we could get 10's of millions of Americans to stop paying their income tax by 2015. Get everyone to do it that year. I bet it would open some eyes. :D

O and back one topic. Gas around here in western NC hit $4.00 a gallon. Now if only I can get a gallon of gas to last as long as a gallon of milk it will be all good. :)

Re: Changing Driving Habits?

Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:46 pm

to rot in your fridge Tony?

Re: Changing Driving Habits?

Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:38 pm

Wesley wrote:to rot in your fridge Tony?


No, no. A gallon of milk last me four or five days. It never gets close to spoiling.
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