RTCW is not dead - RIND for short :)

[pinkname]

Mkay guys,

I leave Euros topic http://www.ecgnetwork.co/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=26274 and continue here. We could call it rtcwlive, but it isn't exactly that, also the name is already taken by ID. Anyway, live=not dead isn't it. Forget about zombies for now pls :)

The aim of this topic is to collect and discuss possibilities of pulling newcomers to the scene. Pls read, add your thoughts (pro and contra!), ideas, whatever.

My Engrish is as it is, pls correct and/or clarify me whenever you feel necessary.

_Any_ ideas are welcome, but the only one yet is something resembling quakelive. Not much in technical terms, but as a concept of reaching ppl through a website and forwarding them to actual games by it. What I imagined is sort of a mixture of clanbase, quakelive, some sports gambling site, wolfTV, and some multicasting service with speakers.


For the beginning let's assume (these are absolutely questionable, but needed for streamlining talks):

- Newbs would come if they were presented an easy and legal way, like they did go playing Q3 under the name QL.
- ID is not against making some money with rtcw again.
- Building a "wrapper" around the existing game is legally possible (more about this later).
- Quakelive is not profitable, something else have to be invented (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00q9-ftipvq&t=74m23s posted by nigel years ago).
- ID is not willing to issue RTCWlive, we have to do something ourselves.


What?

Basicly on the site a player could:

- buy/download the game (this MUST be arranged with ID, without them the whole concept is fcked)
- join available "fun" matches filtered by whatever comes to your mind
- create and/or join a "fun" team
- create and/or join a "pro" team
- arrange and play "pro" matches
- discuss whatever (forums)


nonplayers (and players too ofc.) could:

- read (and/or watch) documentation, tips, tutorials, stats, whatever
- watch "pro" matches
- bet on "pro" matches
- discuss "pro" matches
- join fangroups

I call "fun" those things that don't involve money anyhow (no fees, no bets), and call "pro" those who are related to money anyhow.


How?

The technical infrastructure consists of rtcw servers both in US and EU (for some eu vs us matches even induced lag could be added for the sake of being fair), a www server frontend, and a db backend (and all the bells and whistles: redundancy, backup, monitoring whatever). The rtcw servers would allow only ppl coming from the www site (by filtering IPs, GUIDs, whatever), data from the rtcw servers could go back to the db (several independent dbs more precisely), the only direct communication between the www server and the rtcw clients could be a wolflauncher like thingie.


What is needed?

- A plan. If we don't stuck somewhere, we can put it together imo as a community project.
- A business plan to make sure it works. The cost of development and infrastructure is not negligable, risks have to be calculated and managed.
- Money must be somehow involved, the project needs infrastructure, hardware, bandwidth and humans. Money could come from ads and the bets. Incomes should be shared with ID, and the "pro" teams winning matches. Maybe some minor money should also be collected from the "pros" when arranging bettable matches, to keep them serious enough to not abandon matches. Some restrictions might be invented (eg. a newb team couldn't instantly arrange a "pro" match).
- Ppl who sort out all the aspects (from legal issues through marketing to technicals and the rtcw version to be used) . The stuff is much more difficult than someone could create it alone.
- Ppl who develop it
- Ppl who operate it
- Funding (if the business plan is good enough, funding won't be a problem)
- A company with betting rights (it's legally very difficult and expensive)
- Finally players, players and players.



Is the above very stupid?

J.

['L0,]

Short answer, yep pretty much.

I don't know why you keep dragging ID in it. They wont do any business with anyone but established company, and even if they would, there's no funds for it. We're talking about serious money and not pocket allowance.

Betting system is ridiculous. In order to run anything involving online gambling system requires company, sh!t load of money to pay the lawyers and then even more money to obtain the license (regional). And then you're naturally heavily monitored to see if you comply with rules all the times, not to mention that in order to use this you would need to purchase the engine as well as rights to title or you'll get sued to a point that even your grand children will need to sell them self to slavery. It's just nonsense to continue in this manner.

You don't need any infrastructure either. All you need is domain name, a server for forum, game etc..when scaling or in ideal conditions you would separate download from web services to reduces the load..so 2 servers then. Game servers are hosted by anyone that wishes - naturally experience will reflect their capabilities as you simply can't host 40 slot server on a 1mb upload line..but that's beyond this topic anyway.

Any in game interactions like you proposed (clan, fun teams..) would need to be coded and any out-game interactions are just a website based coding where you can either write a module for any cms/forum or whatever software you use, or write everything from start on your own.

In order to write anything, assets needs to be replaced or it's a waste of time. Bottom line is, there's no money to be made so stop day dreaming about it. All that can be made is too push game more out in the open so it pores in new blood - that requires sacrificing one's time to program it, one's funds to run it (live or just support page) and most of all, assets to replace the freaking property thing.

Anything else is just wasting time. All you wrote can technically be created but would not mean crap because you can't put out a new game and say;

HEY, there's a new render, shit load of new stuff that will enhance your game and bring new features in but in order to play it, you need to have default packs and then manually copy them so your game works

I've done that. I even went as far as I could - I've included in installer simple "point and click" option to select mp_pak0 and pak0 and people still didn't have them. I reduced the default packs to only 2 core packs and replace all the rest so it came with actual installer, but yet, here we are. It fails, until default packs aren't replaced all this is useless. People are lazy, they want all at once and if you want new blood you by any rational logic have to give all in one and not ask people to obtain 10 years old game so you can play with more players on the server.

Sad but true.

[pinkname]

Cmooon :D

We are not 5 yr old kids anymore. Betting system is not ridiculous, it is working in many countries, especially in England what I know most about. Pls consider the below words:

- you're talking about lawsuits repeatedly, ignoring that I'm only thinking in legal ways.
- betting part could be done by an already established company. Our scene is extremely small compared to the needs of establishing a company for the betting. Outsourcing is the key.
- you say no infrastructure is needed, but you yourself list a webserver, a downloadserver and the gameservers themselves. What is it if not an infrastructure?
- you still keep saying that modding rtcw is a must. I keep saying it is not. I keep dragging ID in it, because it is their game, and they have to provide ways selling it. Isn't it clear? Cmoon.
- yes, it's "just" a website. Google is also "just a website", and not even the most complex one. So what? Be glad it is just a website and not rocket science. The development needed for a project like this is not impossibly complex, this could be done technically, there's nothing nothing new in it. The most important questions are: would newbs come, would ppl be interested in matches and ofc what way would ID sell more copies of their game and finally what business model could keep it alive.

Anyhow, thanks for your opinion.

J.

['L0,]

Exactly we're not 5 years old kids.

Your legal ways are utopic dreams. You state that you want to out source betting system and then say in next sentence we're a small community. Who will bet on 20 pub players? Also you do know that any real company will not do business with individuals right? You need to be a company in order to purchase company's services usually, at least when it comes to I.T. related stuff - albeit, there may be company around that offers their services to individuals.

Infrastructure costs for what I'm saying are negligible.
Domain: 15 € per year - with even protected whois data.
VPS: 9 € per month - 1gb ram/dual core/1tb with nginx and db installed should be fine for forums and front end
VPS2: 5 € per month - with 512mb ram/1TB bandwidth and it's scalable = another TB is 2 bucks, more ram few more etc..

It's around 16 bucks per month with VAT included if we ignore yearly purchase of domain. It's quite fine for startup and then it can scale accordingly.

-------------
You're talking about offering hosting which is completely different world. For hosting you need a game panel script (I wrote my own this summer), a front end server (web interface) and then actual hardware to run games on it. I know, I'm running it with Reflex just for fun so know all the ins and outs of this.

-------------
I'm talking about lawsuits because you clearly don't apprehend what you're getting your self into. Sure you don't need modded game, you want vanilla great, fine. But if you want to go legal as you say, then you are aware that you cannot offer any patches for master list, basically anything that alters binaries. That means that any player that purchases the game needs to visit your site, figure out how to add entries in hosts and then play a default game. That's shrub or any mod that's around.

So in that sense we can summarize this quite easily:
- You want a website and a betting system
- Offer hosting services
- Advertise RTCW to get new people.

You don't need anyone of us for that. Buy domain, rent space for 2-3 bucks per month. Grab any CMS you like (Joomla, Drupal..), find a company that will offer betting services on your site, write a simple plugin or module for it, put links as to where to buy RTCW on steam, and invest some money into getting hardware and purchasing a hosting script/build your own/use free ones and advertise your services around. That's it, you're good to go.

[pinkname]

Pls stop being so ignorant.

Noone cares for 20 pub players, that's what all this fuss is about. To have more. How much more? I do not know. But if there are eg. 20-30 teams, the thing can start flying. I guess.
What if I need a company? What if I need 20 of them? Rly, is it a problem? It is a problem for a 5 yr old, but not for most of us I guess. Of course it has to be a company. Of course it has to be legal and of course it is an _investment_ with risks and rewards. If the risks are acceptable compared to rewards, then it's no matter how big or small the project is, it can be done succesfully.

I don't understand what you mean by "offering hosting" and what that world differs from.

If the game launches automaticly from a launcher app you don't need no stinkin serverlists whatever. Do you see a serverlist in quakelive within the game interface? Do you need one? Why would users need to tamper with their hosts? I see no reason for that. If you'd explain, I'd have a chance.

Maybe it's me not communicating clearly enough and the concept in my brain is not getting through, but atm your words seem simply a proper rant to me. Your last lines resemble the most what I'm thinking about yes.

J.

[W0lfy]

Jesus do you have a gambling problem or what? there is no reason to have betting, making a betting system alone would be much more difficult than doing rtcw live

['L0,]

You said you need infrastructure for usa and eu. Why do you need it for usa and eu if you're not talking about game hosting? We may be on different page here but I think it's quite fair to assume it was that what you mean, or at leash how it was presented and appear to be- Although I may be wrong so if I am, my bad.

And I'm not ranting. I'm just tired of rehashed ideas over and over again. I'm fully active since 2006. I'm staying in background since 2010 or so but always lurking in the background. I've seen this sorts of ideas more times you probably played in the last month - I'm not being rude just explaining. I don't know what you think you can do that others didn't try before and to be honest, I'm not even interested in it as it gets old after a while.

Gaming industry is harsh, it's harsh for AAA distributors/developers and it's even more harsh for any indie's let alone enthusiasts. I like rtcw, there's no game like it, if it would be we wouldn't have this discussion. But I also live in reality and reality is, that game is unappealing to new age kids- it's old, graphics are outdated, game style is unpopular to CoD age kids etc etc. It will probably take years till last player leaves but game is by all accounts dead and no advertising will save it.

Drastic change, updates and then advertising may give it a shot, but prove me wrong. I'll gladly admit it and wish you GL at your attempt, I really do! But I've sit on this band vagon too many times to go for another ride. All I can say is, that I and I know for few more would gladly devote our free time and do our best to bring game more up to times but for that we need a willing public and most of all, a modeller or someone that will fix the outdated asset and get rid of property assets, anything less, what's the point.

Last edited by 'L0, on Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[pinkname]

Jesus do you have a gambling problem or what? there is no reason to have betting, making a betting system alone would be much more difficult than doing rtcw live

No, I don't have any gambling problems and it's not me playing lotto every day, but I'd gladly bet a dollar for maria's team (replace the name as you wish) on an ecgn round :)

More seriously: it's just an idea to bring more ppl in. Spects also. If you look around what's happening in the world, you'll find that "esports" (I hate this word btw - I don't consider games a sport) start going in this direction. Broadcasts and betting add heavily to the popularity, and if the bets bring some money for the services we can be happy. That's it.

['L0,]

FYI (since you asked);
Adding to host file is an alternative way to redirect default game to new master server. You are breaking the law by editing binary (wolfMP) to point to new master server so to stay in the green zone you tell players to edit their hosts file in order to get new master list and avoid any editing of the binary- And I doubt anyone would even care or let alone raise any issues but that's just an example what you're facing if you're staying with default game.

[pinkname]

You said you need infrastructure for usa and eu. Why do you need it for usa and eu if you're not talking about game hosting? We may be on different page here but I think it's quite fair to assume it was that what you mean, or at leash how it was presented and appear to be- Although I may be wrong so if I am, my bad.

Ahh yes, if you call _this_ hosting, then yes, ofc. the _service_ needs gameservers, but I wouldn't call it hosting because only clients from the web interface could connect and it's not the classic meaning of hosting.

And I'm not ranting. I'm just tired of rehashed ideas over and over again. I'm fully active since 2006. I'm staying in background since 2010 or so but always lurking in the background. I've seen this sorts of ideas more times you probably played in the last month - I'm not being rude just explaining. I don't know what you think you can do that others didn't try before and to be honest, I'm not even interested in it as it gets old after a while.

You have to be interested of you're helping me (us) by writing so many words on the topic. Thank you!

Gaming industry is harsh, it's harsh for AAA distributors/developers and it's even more harsh for any indie's let alone enthusiasts. I like rtcw, there's no game like it, if it would be we wouldn't have this discussion. But I also live in reality and reality is, that game is unappealing to new age kids- it's old, graphics are outdated, game style is unpopular to CoD age kids etc etc. It will probably take years till last player leaves but game is by all accounts dead and no advertising will save it.

I repeat: I know at least one example of an old game still popular. It is QL. QL doen't differ too much in graphics, does it? ;) Are you watching football because of the nice green grass? Check what sort of games are _watched_, and you might see what I'm talking about. Now, I'm not very prepared to collect you some examples, but I can do so if you are rly interested. It has to be a part of any business plan anyways.
EDIT: The "watchability" of Q3 is much worse than rtcw imo. That might be a reason why ID didn't make any broadcasts around QL.

Drastic change, updates and then advertising may give it a shot, but prove me wrong. I'll gladly admit it and wish you GL at your attempt, I really do!

I think providing such a service around a game is quite a drastic change. Maybe not drastic enough, I'm not sure of anything, this is why I started the discussion.

But I've sit on this band vagon too many times to go for another ride. All I can say is, that I and I know for few more would gladly devote our free time and do our best to bring game more up to times but for that we need a willing public and most of all, a modeller or someone that will fix the outdated asset and get rid of property assets, anything less, what's the point.

Well, I had many unsuccesful projects, and some successful ones. The difference is not big imo at a first glance, that's why I say the thing is not as easy, that's why I say risks and rewards have to be calculated (not just guessed). I'm not afraid of the size, I've managed 10M EUR projects many years ago, I know what I'm talking about and I know my limits.

About new assets: I'm playing rtcw since the beginning and never met the need for new artworks until you brought it up maybe a couple months ago in some of your posts. I did plenty of 3d modeling in the late 90's, also did modeling and texturing for a military AFV driving simulator (controls: i486, rendering: SGI o2), I have the experience. BUT: (as we already discussed) it wouldn't be rtcw anymore. Rtcw has a look, a feel, going too close to it would only arise legal issues I think. Anyhow, if you (or anyone) can convince me, I might do it, also have some old collegues who played rtcw and they might help also. The biggest task is to recreate maps imo, remodelling characters and their textures shouldn't take too much time, nowadays LOD can also be created much easier than 15 yrs ago.

EDIT- FYI:
Adding to host file is an alternative way to redirect default game to new master server. You are breaking the law by editing binary (wolfMP) to point to new master server - I doubt anyone would care or raise any issues but that's just an example what you're facing if you're staying with default game.

Yees, but this is irrelevant, since the concept doesn't need any server browser.

['L0,]

There's a whole generation of difference in graphics between QL and quake3. Maybe not for you if you're on low end hardware but it's quite a difference. Sure it's not bleeding edge and I wont really step into all the graphics aspects as it's not my branch but it is a difference yes.

At the end of the day graphics means nothing to me, but if you want to get new players, it matters to most of them. Assets is a problem due two reasons - new players want new stuff | You need your asset if you want to go standalone or distribute it, otherwise no you can ignore it.

I could really go on and on but fact is, I reached the breaking point. I'm done with rtcw because there's nothing more to do here and it's a dead end. I moved to other projects and other things. I am at time still brushing my finger tips and dropping a line or two occasionally but in a large scale am not interested in it any more because I can't go beyond what I know and I wont invest my time in something I have no interest what so ever (modelling).

Only thing I can say is that I would be willing to work on it again in any manner and fully focused, but only if someone would solve the assets. MAA did and is doing a great job with ioRtcw and keeping it up with ioQuake development so a lot of possibilities are there, but he can only push it to certain point and eventually someone else has to solve the other end, otherwise it's just a waste of time and a sisyphean task. Anything else, I have no interest in it and only wish GL to whatever you or anyone else that's trying to do whatever it is they're trying to do.

[pinkname]

There's a whole generation of difference in graphics between QL and quake3. Maybe not for you if you're on low end hardware but it's quite a difference. Sure it's not bleeding edge and I wont really step into all the graphics aspects as it's not my branch but it is a difference yes.

I'm using my q3 cfg and this way it looks just the same :> Maps are the same, characters are the same, weapons are the same. To me QL is just Q3 with a web interface.

At the end of the day graphics means nothing to me, but if you want to get new players, it matters to most of them. Assets is a problem due two reasons - new players want new stuff | You need your asset if you want to go standalone or distribute it, otherwise no you can ignore it.

You're right. In this topic I'm looking for the "new stuff". Ideas that can bring something not yet seen to rtcw. The above QLlike concept is just one. The best would be if someone could invent a brand new game better than rtcw.

I'm done with rtcw because there's nothing more to do here and it's a dead end.

Yes, rtcw is already done (mkay, maybe the flamer bug could be solved ;-)), that's why I'm looking for ways outside the game itself.

Only thing I can say is that I would be willing to work on it again in any manner and fully focused, but only if someone would solve the assets. MAA did and is doing a great job with ioRtcw and keeping it up with ioQuake development so a lot of possibilities are there, but he can only push it to certain point and eventually someone else has to solve the other end, otherwise it's just a waste of time and a sisyphean task.

I'm wondering, why we don't see posts about the need of ppl doing the modeling/textures whatever? I know at least three ppl who still play rtcw and could solve it without great sacrifices. I don't know if an open rtcw version would be a solution, but if eg. MAA is working on it, he has to have a clue. Pls. Mr. MAA, bring your thoughts!

J.

['L0,]

I don't move in those (modellers) circles. I don't know any people with few exceptions and those aren't interested. I do know people IRL that work as animators or modellers in gaming industry but they have no desire in working outside of their work because they're either fed up with it or have their own thing going on.

And no rtcw is not done, it's much to be desired but community is more or less done. And if you know people I don't know what you're waiting for. Go, start rolling the dice and set things in motion, rest will sort it self out along the way.


And about rtcw live, here in 15 min;
-------------------
http://repository.rtcwx.com/wolfX/live_concept/1.png
http://repository.rtcwx.com/wolfX/live_concept/2.png
http://repository.rtcwx.com/wolfX/live_concept/3.png
http://repository.rtcwx.com/wolfX/live_concept/4.png
http://repository.rtcwx.com/wolfX/live_concept/5.png
http://repository.rtcwx.com/wolfX/live_concept/6.png
-------------------
A simple concept in motion..didn't test it much as it was running over vmvare so it lagged like crap but it was running over browser.

[pinkname]

From the graphician standpont to start the "asset" thing one needs:

- motivation
- "artistic" concept (the work of an art director: how far it should go from the original assets to be on the safe side legally while not creating something completely different - I have no clue atm)
- specifications
- tools (a pro has them)
- time (motivated ppl have it)

Specs can be very hardly collected by someone who doesn't have a deep understanding of the existing code (like me), this has to be done by someone who knows _exactly_ what is needed. To not just waste time, these specs should include many things, a list of the needed models, desired complexity/vertex counts, techniques to be used, texture sizes, number and complexity of LOD mutations, animation phases (and probably a lot of other things). Until these are not sorted out, noone can do a proper job.

J.

['L0,]

A lot of stuff is already on the internet. I sadly can't currently give you any IQM specifics because I didn't implement it. I'm sure MAA has more answers, or if he doesn't then ioquake3 or blender community will surely have.

As far as the concept goes. Legality is the main problem and can't be answered without doing some research so there's nothing I can comment on that. But as far as I see, you wouldn't want to start with organic models and rigging them from start, probably you would want to sort basics first ->tool chain -> exporting, scaling, mapping and for that, you don't much of specifics..Triangles are low for something like crate and it's a good starting point so you get familiar with whole process and all it's perks - not to mention there's tons of documentation and tutorials out for basic stuff.

I mean the way I see it, it's all in initiative, if you don't show any it's hard to expect someone will give you all the details. Artistic concepts, specifications, tools and all tied to it are generally how it's done, but for that you need a game plan and an actual team, and there just ain't any in rtcw sadly.

Ow, and far as concept goes, it all depends what exactly are you interested in - In remake, then you know what models are needed: 8 for MP/more if you go into SP, environment asset (static brushes like trees, low poly vehicles, weapons, crates etc) - I mean just generalizing, not saying it's all black and white and would not need further intel (complexity, vertex etc..) and explanations. If it's not a remake, then well depends what that game is suppose to be.