The Passion of Christ

by **SavageParrot** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 5:40 am

Originally posted by PudriK
religion has two other historical functions: one, to provide a sense of ritual and commonality that bonds communities together

See christians vs. islam in the crusades vols 1-5, or the actions of Vlad the impaler v.s islam, the religious violence between indians and pakistani's, the ongoing violence in Israel, the 30 years war, the Spanish inquisition, the troubles in Ireland...Need I go On?

In it's entire history religion has done nothing but promote violence from one group towards another. If this is the morality you want me to buy into I think I'll give it a miss, thanks all the same.

by **SavageParrot** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 5:45 am

Originally posted by Major SONAR

(Ok go ahead and flame me.. I'm wearing my asbestos suit):D

Couln't we jsu scratch the suit so that you inhale all that carcinogenic asbestos dust goodness, or is that just a theory as well?

by **Major SONAR** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 8:17 am

Couln't we jsu scratch the suit so that you inhale all that carcinogenic asbestos dust goodness, or is that just a theory as well?

Actually I suppose you could, howeverI believe that it has been proven that breathing asbestos is hazardous to your health. So in answer to your question... it's not a theory, since it's previously been proven.

by **Murgatroyd** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 8:23 am

Originally posted by Major SONAR
Actually I suppose you could, howeverI believe that it has been proven that breathing asbestos is hazardous to your health. So in answer to your question... it's not a theory, since it's previously been proven.

Yes, it causes mysothelioma - a real nasty condition. What's funny is they removed the asbestos from my HS the year after I graduated. Gee, thanks.

by **Tyrel** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:49 am

Originally posted by SavageParrot
See christians vs. islam in the crusades vols 1-5, or the actions of Vlad the impaler v.s islam, the religious violence between indians and pakistani's, the ongoing violence in Israel, the 30 years war, the Spanish inquisition, the troubles in Ireland...Need I go On?

In it's entire history religion has done nothing but promote violence from one group towards another. If this is the morality you want me to buy into I think I'll give it a miss, thanks all the same.

I'm very glad someone brought this up, as it is a touchy subject within a religious debate. Despite promoting order and spiritual guidance, religion does create conflict. The conflicts that Savage mentioned are but a fraction of of all religious wars.

However, that being said, we cannot assume that all wars were started by religion. As the world modernized itself, we've seen a decline in conflicts being started by varying religious views. The 20th and 19th centuries' wars were (mostly) fought over political reasons, although some of those conflicts included some form of religious intolerance. A very obvious example of this is WWII, started for political purposes, dragged on and still remembered today as the worst war ever for the Nazis' pursecution of a certain religious group.

EDIT: Pudrik, I'm very curious to what you have to reply to this. Your arguments in this thread are well-based and very clear. Please, let's hear your view!

by **Edogg** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:14 am

In it's entire history religion has done nothing but promote violence from one group towards another. If this is the morality you want me to buy into I think I'll give it a miss, thanks all the same.

what you should have said was,"there have been moments throughout history where humans have misinterpreted their religions". That would have been more accurate. Religions just attempt to define a particular faith so that communities can come together. Unfortunately, as humans attempt to interpret their faith, mistakes are made.

I suggest you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Those are the rules of morality that my particular religion promotes. You will not find one sentence promoting violence, but rather you will find that it promotes against it.

by **SavageParrot** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:25 am

Don't get me started on the catholics I am one. Catholics started the crusades, kept silent through the holocaust, brutalised anyone who didn't agree to their dogma in the middle ages, supervised witch hunts (and executions), kept silent over the troubles in Ireland, kept silent over the slave trade (world wide though particularly in south america) and are currently buoying up the aids epidemic in Africa by forbidding members of their chuch to use the contaception that might just save their lives. Oh and Hitler was educated at a Catholic monastic school, outstanding!

Still I imagine Torquemada had read the cathechisms so that's alright eh

by **Major SONAR** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:26 am

"Everyone who is seriously interested in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe—a spirit vastly superior to man, and one in the face of which our modest powers must feel humble."

ALBERT EINSTEIN

Just a thought.

by **SavageParrot** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:27 am

The nuclear bomb, wow that Einstein guy was one hell of a stand up guy!

by **Edogg** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:40 am

Originally posted by SavageParrot
Don't get me started on the catholics I am one. Catholics started the crusades, kept silent through the holocaust, brutalised anyone who didn't agree to their dogma in the middle ages, supervised witch hunts (and executions), kept silent over the troubles in Ireland, kept silent over the slave trade (world wide though particularly in south america) and are currently buoying up the aids epidemic in Africa by forbidding members of their chuch to use the contaception that might just save their lives. Outstanding!

Still I imagine Torquemada had read the cathechisms so that's alright eh?

no, I have news for you. Once you have decided that you arent going to believe in anything that the catholic church teaches, you arent a catholic.

Again, all of the things you have listed(other than contraception) are moments where humans have made poor decisions. Humans are not perfect. You need to remember that. You are focusing on all the bad stuff that happened instead of the good.

by **Murgatroyd** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:58 am

Originally posted by Tyrel
The 20th and 19th centuries' wars were (mostly) fought over political reasons, although some of those conflicts included some form of religious intolerance. A very obvious example of this is WWII, started for political purposes, dragged on and still remembered today as the worst war ever for the Nazis' pursecution of a certain religious group.

I beg to differ - after copious reading and researching about the Nazis - I would describe their ideology as one of a religion. A religion the NSDAP used to justify their kleptocracy (which is often the case - religion used to justify kleptocracy).

You can see it throughout their speeches and idolatry - the wermacht had a full-blown ritual of indoctrination which was held at night in the ruins of a medieval castle, complete with drums and torches. The SS had a ceremony which involved giving it's members tattoos to show that they were now members of "the blood order".

Their ideaology was similiar to that of a religion - they considered themselves ubermencht - that is above every other race on the planet - the justification of which was that it was some sort of divine right or providence. Such claims are made throughout Mein Kampf and were preached regularly during nazi speeches.

Himmler concocted a scheme in which he used falsified archealogical evidence to support the theory that the nazis were part of some sort of prophecy fulfilled. Copious nazi propaganda sites divine providence as the reason behind the "invincibility" of the wehrmacht in the early years of the war.

As strange as it may sound, many nazis thought that they were actually doing the world good by exterminating the Jews. They actually, fervently believed the things that they preached.

I think this is an example of a religion (nazism) being invented, imposed upon a civilization, and leading to a conflict on the basis of that religion. Hitler believed in the theory that the germanic races were superior to other races as a result of "providence" - a word he used ubiquiteously throughout his memoirs. The sole purpose of his wars was to acquire "lebenstraum" - living space for his "ubermencht". Which is the basis of the use of religion by many civilizations in the past (and some in the present) - to justify kleptocracy -it's just in this case, it was a the National Socialistche Deutch Arbeiter Partei basing it's political beliefs on some non-secular providence - in a sense giving it the definition of a religion, and then using that religion to put into motion one of the most horrendous events in human history.

by **SavageParrot** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:02 am

Edogg I didn't say I didn't believe in any of it, much of what they have to say on the way to live your lives makes perfect sense, it's just that they can't seem to stick to it and won't accept argument on the subject that makes all religion such a fucking stuipid idea. I prefer to live my life on the simple principle that you can do whatever you want just so long as you don't cause harm to anyone else, and not on the teachings of men who write under the guise of being the mouthpiece of God and imagine their opinions to be the be all and end all of what we as a species should and shouldn't do.

by **Murgatroyd** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:09 am

Originally posted by SavageParrot
The nuclear bomb, wow that Einstein guy was one hell of a stand up guy!

Umm, no. He didn't directly work on the bomb. His theories were employed in the development of the bomb - yes, but so were the theories of Newton. So is that to say that Newton also invented the atomic bomb?

J. Robert Oppenheimer was the man directly behind the bomb - he and a team of scientists - a team which did not include Albert Einstein. I don't really understand where the misconception that he was somehow directly involved in the development of the bomb began. There was a point in which Oppenheimer wrote him a letter for advice - and Einstein's reply was somewhere along the lines that his conscious would never allow him to assist on such a project and that his goal was to further the advancement of atomic energy as beneficial rather than destructive to mankind.

Have you ever studied quantum theory, or physics on an advanced level? You can certainly understand what he was talking about - the fabric of existance is so complex and mysterious that one could easily begin to suspect that there is some sentient being that is behind it all. What would be even more amazing is if it somehow created itself.

We could go on and on debating how existance came to be, whether or not there is in fact some infinite intelligence somewhere behind it all - but isn't it enough to just simply appreciate and admire the beauty of it all?

by **SavageParrot** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:50 am

ah touche. Hmm Newton, yep I'll get that bastard one day, just as soon as I perfect my time machine, Muah ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaa!

by **Colonel Ingus** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 12:40 pm

And Man created god in his own image.

I did type that correctly. and if you understand it then you can see the underlying fault of all organized religions.

The Passion of Christ

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