US soldiers torturing prisoners

[SavageParrot Profile]

Can't we stick all these f**kers on a shuttle to the sun or something?

[ToeJam]

Thanks for that post Devil. It's amazing to me that when we do something wrong, it makes front page news, however when they torture American civilians (besides the pictures you provided, Daniel Pearl rings a bell) or the like, it usually always goes unheard. That's slanted news reporting, completely ridiculous, and makes the American people think we are the wrong doers in everything. And I am a little more than sick and tired of that nonsense.

As for sending them to the sun or something, I only wish that could be the case. You are dealing with a primitive society that has fought over religion and dirt for thousands of years. There is no sense to it, they look down on and abuse women, and follow a religion so fantatically that they're willing to kill themselves and innocent people just in the name of God.

What's ironic to me is that even though the Middle East contains one of the world's most precious resources, it's average citizen makes less than half salary wise annually, than the typical American or European. If that isn't proof of something seriously wrong (and I am not just talking about Iraq), than I don't know what is.

I don't ever think their will be peace over their. They are uneducated as well as ignornant and that shines through in their primitiveness and barbaric actions towards anyone who doesn't agree with their ideology. I do not condone what US or British soldiers have supposedly done to Iraqi prisoners, however when the media reports both sides openly and paints the picture more uniformly, than I'll pay a bit more attention.

This is my own opinion, I did not intend to insult anyone or get into a war of words either.

Mike

[SavageParrot Profile]

Whoa I didn't mean that I meant any sick fuckers who take pleasure in torturing other humans and that includes those alliance soldiers as well.

[ToeJam]

I know you didn't bro, that was just a little something I have been harboring inside for quite some time. It wasn't meant for you, just my own thoughts on the matter.

We try to do good and offer them hope, while American and British soldiers are dying in the process. And even when there might be 2 insignificant bad apples in the bunch of thousands, it seems like those two apples are put on pedestals and are treated as representations of how we truely are.

I have yet to see anything positive on the news, at least here in America, regarding the removal of that murdeous dictator who killed more of his own people than the coalition did in both wars combined. And what happens because of this, is that you get a nation brainwashed by the media hating their own without really giving it much further insight. That is eerily visible here in New York City.

And in the end what emerges because of this slanted news reporting, is that you get a nation who doesn't believe in itself or each other anymore. I see that everyday. People crying give peace a chance when action becomes the decisive factor, yet silent and invisble when for years Hussein killed, raped and tortured hundreds and thousands at will.

I guess if more Americans witnessed 9/11 like I did (tower two began collapsing 2 straight blocks ahead of me, and not only that but I was suppose to be in tower 1 104th floor that morning at 8:00am for Risk Waters Training but budget cutbacks prevented me from going) than they might be more unaminous in dealing with any and all threats posed against the nations of the free world before these psycho bastards have the chance to inflict such horrific carnage on innocent civilians again.

I suffered 2 long years with Post Traumatc Stress Syndrome, and the passion of my life, aviation, has been stripped from my heart and soul . I won't dare to venture on a plane anymore without an ejection seat. The last time I flew to Chicago (August of 2003) I had to take a train back because I was a complete basket case on the plane, replaying 9/11 through my mind constantly. And unfortunately, I haven't flown since.

Sorry if I seemed confusing.

Cheers,

Mike

[cavalierlwt Profile]

Arabs and certain other groups are viewing this as torture on the same scale as Saddam. People need to get a grip on reality. What happened was wrong, but there is a big difference between humiliating someone and torturing them. Ripping someones tongue out is torture, taking their picture naked in a gay pose is humiliating. There IS a world of difference. I expect the soldiers to get court martials, thrown out of the service. I can't believe Arabs consider this to be equivalent (or worse) than what Saddam did.
If I were running the show, I would cut deal with Saddam, tell him to be a good little boy and we'll put him back on his throne. We have taken him down and he knows it, his sons are dead, he knows we can (and will) do it anytime.
Put ole Saddam back and let him take care of Iraq again.
It's the solution to everything, gets the oil flowing again, get's us out of Iraq, maintains the bulwark against Islamic extremist...and part of the deal would be we build a huge permanent base in Iraq.

[CharlieDontSurf]

I was floored when this story broke. Not because of their actions but because they were foolish enough to take these pictures. I don't condone torture from either side but we all need to realize we're at war. Getting prisoners to talk is a high priority and as someone stated earlier, human nature is involved. I'm sure conventional methods weren't producing the results the troops were looking for and they lost it. They should be disciplined but IMO they will be more harshly treated than some of the Iraqi POWs.

Mental note to self ****never pose for a picture that you don't want to see on 60 Minutes.***

[Mighty Mazz]

Personally I don't view what those soldiers did as all that bad, immature and stupid yeah but what you have to remember is these are probably the same jackoffs that were trying to put a couple rounds in the soldiers heads or blow themselves up. It's got to be hard to be nice to some of those fanatic zealots. I think a good dishonarable discharge is in order for those soldiers tho, if you can't follow the rules of war you shouldn't be a soldier.

Is it just me or does it seem like the army is filled with kids who almost flunked out of highschool and can't get a job.

[Murgatroyd]

The big problem with this situation is - we're supposed to be the 'good guys'. We're supposed to be the ones setting the example of human rights and democracy, and we were already fighting an uphill battle. Like ToeJam said, we're combating slanted media (it's even worse over there, if you want to get pissed off go read some articles at Al Jazeera), and like Pudrik said (either in this thread or another), that regardless of the scenario, we are occupiers and there will always be people who resent us for that.

So it's more important than anything that we play by the rules, especially the rules that we call people on immediately when they violate them. Someone once said that one should not scold others for their mistakes, lest you be scolded worse when you make the same.

That's why this is such a huge problem, and why we need to deal with these soldiers harshly, preforably in the exact same manner that we'd treat foreign war criminals. Don't forget - we're the ones preaching human rights, humane treatment of prisoners, and condemning the individuals who killed those four workers (remember, that's how this recent violence started) so it's vitally important that we set a good standard ourselves.

[Camel toe joe Profile WebsiteYIM]

Originally posted by SGT DEVILDOG
I do not agree with what the guards did at all. They should be punished to the full extent of military law, which is much harsher than civilian law. Having said that this is how they torture Americans. http://craigpages3.100megsfree5.com/JPG/Iraq/Iraq_Hidden_From_USA.html
Please don’t flame me here just trying to show the other side of the equation.
VERY Graphic

I was tempted to brings this up as well but didn't want to get flamed for 2 wrongs don't make a right...Humans are humans and that will never change repent the end is near!

[cavalierlwt Profile]

Originally posted by Murgatroyd
The big problem with this situation is - we're supposed to be the 'good guys'.
------
So it's more important than anything that we play by the rules, especially the rules that we call people on immediately when they violate them. Someone once said that one should not scold others for their mistakes, lest you be scolded worse when you make the same.
---- so it's vitally important that we set a good standard ourselves.

This line of thought is like tilting at windmills, it's an impossibility. You mentioned that 'we're supposed to be the Good Guys here. Nobody except us sees us that way. No one. Ask the non-Americans (and non-Canadians) on this board what the perception of the US is, it's not at all as 'the good guys'. If we toe the mark to the letter of perfection, we are still not going to be seen as good guys. So, there is no point in trying to redress the situation in the eyes of the World. No amount of punishing, up to and including torture and death, would restore our good image, as we didn't have and won't ever have a good image in the eyes of the World. We should punish those soldiers only in a way that suits the crime and satisfies us. What they did was the equivalent of a high school athletics programs style prank, the kind of things that the football team seniors do to the incoming freshmen.
Dishonorably discharge them because they completely failed to do their job when it 'counted', in a real life war. They were supposed to professionally guard the prisoners, they failed, they're fired.
We're overreacting because we think if we act shocked enough the World will somehow be satisfied and 'like' us. Not gonna happen!

[CodeRed68 Profile]

Great post ToeJam (Mike). You hit the nail on the head. It is cruel what they did but obviously this is an isolated incident of a few sick individuals and does not represent America or it's people at all. Let's all remember these soldiers are very young themselves (probably 19-25 years old) and need some growing up to do. Human nature in general has not surprised me over the years as we see time and again of the brutality of it. It is sad. Look at history. WW2 with Hitler, more recently in Rwanda, what a million innocents slaughtered in 90 days? And in the Congo happening right now. Whole Villages being slaughtered. People have been killing each other since the dawn of man, mostly in the name of some god. Even the Spaniard during the inquisition and what they did to the people of the Central Americas. This is just a fact of life and it is frustrating and sad.

[Murgatroyd]

Originally posted by cavalierlwt
This line of thought is like tilting at windmills, it's an impossibility. You mentioned that 'we're supposed to be the Good Guys here. Nobody except us sees us that way. No one. Ask the non-Americans (and non-Canadians) on this board what the perception of the US is, it's not at all as 'the good guys'. If we toe the mark to the letter of perfection, we are still not going to be seen as good guys. So, there is no point in trying to redress the situation in the eyes of the World. No amount of punishing, up to and including torture and death, would restore our good image, as we didn't have and won't ever have a good image in the eyes of the World. We should punish those soldiers only in a way that suits the crime and satisfies us. What they did was the equivalent of a high school athletics programs style prank, the kind of things that the football team seniors do to the incoming freshmen.
Dishonorably discharge them because they completely failed to do their job when it 'counted', in a real life war. They were supposed to professionally guard the prisoners, they failed, they're fired.
We're overreacting because we think if we act shocked enough the World will somehow be satisfied and 'like' us. Not gonna happen!

Ok, let me rephrase that.

We're supposed to be the civilized ones.

IMO, it's not a matter of whether or not the rest of the world likes us. They're not going to, not because of what we do, but because of what we are. The most wealthy, powerful, boastful and indulgent country in the world. So, that point is moot. Rather, what I had hoped is that we could stem the tide of American hypocrisy. What would we have done had that been a foreign power doing that to our POWs? We'd demand international justice. I say that the same standard should apply to our troops.

[PudriK Profile]

I had posted a rather long reply to this in another thread, but I guess the party switched rooms...

CodeRed, you are correct. This was primarily a failure of leadership. As I said before, grunts do stupid things sometimes, and it's up to their seargents and officers to look out for them. They failed them.

[Cpt.JohnnyFever]

My response to this is not to tear down the U.S. or any of the great people who live there but to ive actual input to all form a Canadian stand point. Now most Americans first reaction to what I've just wrote is probably" Canada......Who cares about them or what they think"?
This is exactly the problem!!!!
It wouldn't matter wether I was writing from Canada , England,France or Russia most Americans have the same thought pattern ; "who cares"?
If it is not the thought pattern of most , then why is the rest of the world being brainwashed to think so via television, radio and internet.
American are no-longer looked @ as fearless leaders of the west and everyones big brother , the general public believes the total opposite ; it's nagging,spoiled rich kid cousin who could do no wrong and blame the rest of the world for the problems it brings upon itself.
My appologies if I have insulted anyone.I have many American friends and will probably finish out my days in the U.S.

[cavalierlwt Profile]

Originally posted by Cpt.JohnnyFever
My response to this is not to tear down the U.S. or any of the great people who live there but to ive actual input to all form a Canadian stand point. Now most Americans first reaction to what I've just wrote is probably" Canada......Who cares about them or what they think"?
This is exactly the problem!!!!
It wouldn't matter wether I was writing from Canada , England,France or Russia most Americans have the same thought pattern ; "who cares"?
If it is not the thought pattern of most , then why is the rest of the world being brainwashed to think so via television, radio and internet.
American are no-longer looked @ as fearless leaders of the west and everyones big brother , the general public believes the total opposite ; it's nagging,spoiled rich kid cousin who could do no wrong and blame the rest of the world for the problems it brings upon itself.
My appologies if I have insulted anyone.I have many American friends and will probably finish out my days in the U.S.

It's not that I don't care what people other countries think, and please, we are not being brainwashed into thinking that. Nobody likes to be insulted,and when people insult your country, the knee-jerk reaction is to say 'who care's what they think'. We do feel it, we know what the world thinks of us. As bad you think America looks at itself as the 'fearless leader of the west' I would say the World wide community uses America as a scapegoat for nearly all the problems in the world. I know we make mistakes, no one is perfect. But America gets called on it's bad deeds, and when we do something good, people find a reason to sh*t on the good things we do, in order to transform those good deeds into bad deeds.