Encouraging news from Iraq
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- cavalierlwt
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Encouraging news from Iraq
by cavalierlwt » Wed Jun 30, 2004 8:08 pm
I got this from an Iraqi blog. Man, I can't wait to see how things go as Iraqis take a stronger hand in the security of Iraq.
>>In another incident later on the same day, some people armed with RPG's and AK-47's (apparently looters) surrounded the Adhamiya bank which was guarded by an IP and FPS force. The looters shouted to the police that they were here to attack the Americans so it was better for them to leave the area because they did not intend to harm them, nice trick. The IP responded by shooting at the looters, killing two of them and arresting six others. The disturbing bit was that the police dragged the dead looters and violently beat the others.
Other than this incident I haven't heard of any other attempts to loot government property. In fact the performance of the IP until now is encouraging, a number of gangs were surrounded and arrested at Al-Battawiyeen by an Iraqi SWAT force, and people claim that the police used satellite images to locate the gangs, such rumours do have a benefit though. Another widespread and preposterous rumour is that Ayad Allawi has been showing up at IP stations and executing criminals himself, and I have heard this one from a very large number of people.<<
>>In another incident later on the same day, some people armed with RPG's and AK-47's (apparently looters) surrounded the Adhamiya bank which was guarded by an IP and FPS force. The looters shouted to the police that they were here to attack the Americans so it was better for them to leave the area because they did not intend to harm them, nice trick. The IP responded by shooting at the looters, killing two of them and arresting six others. The disturbing bit was that the police dragged the dead looters and violently beat the others.
Other than this incident I haven't heard of any other attempts to loot government property. In fact the performance of the IP until now is encouraging, a number of gangs were surrounded and arrested at Al-Battawiyeen by an Iraqi SWAT force, and people claim that the police used satellite images to locate the gangs, such rumours do have a benefit though. Another widespread and preposterous rumour is that Ayad Allawi has been showing up at IP stations and executing criminals himself, and I have heard this one from a very large number of people.<<
- cavalierlwt
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by cavalierlwt » Wed Jun 30, 2004 8:52 pm
That excerpt from an Iraqi person's weblog was supposed to demonstrate that Iraqi Police (aka IP) know how to deal with Iraqis a little better than Coalition troops.
My comment was regarding the handing over of power to the Iraqis and how things will change in the upcoming months.
I thought it made sense when I cut-n-pasted it, maybe it needed more context.
My comment was regarding the handing over of power to the Iraqis and how things will change in the upcoming months.
I thought it made sense when I cut-n-pasted it, maybe it needed more context.
Failing to plead
with a throat full of dust
Life falls asleep
in a fetal position.
with a throat full of dust
Life falls asleep
in a fetal position.
(joking)- LeVar Burton
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by LeVar Burton » Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:44 pm
I hope they can keep the peace over there. As much as people claim that George W is dumb and inept, they will have to face the prospect of him going down as one of the greatest presidents ever if democracy prevails in the middle east.
- JimmyTango
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by JimmyTango » Thu Jul 01, 2004 7:37 am
Originally posted by LeVar Burton
I hope they can keep the peace over there. As much as people claim that George W is dumb and inept, they will have to face the prospect of him going down as one of the greatest presidents ever if democracy prevails in the middle east.
I am confused how iraq is the middle east?
by CodeRed68 » Thu Jul 01, 2004 8:31 am
originally posted by JimmyTango
"I am confused how iraq is the middle east?"
Levar is referring to the whole picture. What is to come in the future, hopefully. Iraq & Afghanastan are the first steps towards a civilized middle east.
"I am confused how iraq is the middle east?"
Levar is referring to the whole picture. What is to come in the future, hopefully. Iraq & Afghanastan are the first steps towards a civilized middle east.
thanks to Spirit of Me for the sig!
by -HaVoC- » Thu Jul 01, 2004 8:38 am
On the topic of peace and democracy in the middle east... I watched a show on History International last night about the fight between Christianity and Muslims in Nigeria. Christianity is skyrocketing in Africa. This could make Israel and Palestine look boring if it heats up.
The one thing I gathered from the show is the poverty. These people are so poor. It draws them into the two religions to pray for water and relief from disease. Once they are drawn in they are pitted against the other group in violent exchanges.
It really is a completely different world when you can't get a cold glass of clean water.
The one thing I gathered from the show is the poverty. These people are so poor. It draws them into the two religions to pray for water and relief from disease. Once they are drawn in they are pitted against the other group in violent exchanges.
It really is a completely different world when you can't get a cold glass of clean water.
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"Now, if things look bad, and it looks like your not going to make it, then you've got to get mean, I mean plum mad dog mean, 'cause if you lose your head and give up then you neither live nor win, and that's just the way it is."
- The Outlaw Josey Wales -
put me on the team that Harry aint on....I sure miss shooting him and if im on the same team as HaVoC...OMFG we will stomp a mudhole in you and walk it dry.
- YaDad -
"Now, if things look bad, and it looks like your not going to make it, then you've got to get mean, I mean plum mad dog mean, 'cause if you lose your head and give up then you neither live nor win, and that's just the way it is."
- The Outlaw Josey Wales -
put me on the team that Harry aint on....I sure miss shooting him and if im on the same team as HaVoC...OMFG we will stomp a mudhole in you and walk it dry.
- YaDad -
- JimmyTango
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by JimmyTango » Thu Jul 01, 2004 8:43 am
But democracy is already in the middle east, has been for years.
In no way does a successful democratic government in Iraq make the President at the time 'one of the greatest presidents ever.'
In no way does a successful democratic government in Iraq make the President at the time 'one of the greatest presidents ever.'
by -HaVoC- » Thu Jul 01, 2004 8:47 am
I don't know if Democracy is the answer. I mean what is Democracy without a basic understanding and appreciation of human rights? We might have the cart before the horse. I'm sure Democracy works for us in a business sense because we need a government over there we can work with financially. But do I believe that my government is out to protect the human rights of the Iraq people?
-
"Now, if things look bad, and it looks like your not going to make it, then you've got to get mean, I mean plum mad dog mean, 'cause if you lose your head and give up then you neither live nor win, and that's just the way it is."
- The Outlaw Josey Wales -
put me on the team that Harry aint on....I sure miss shooting him and if im on the same team as HaVoC...OMFG we will stomp a mudhole in you and walk it dry.
- YaDad -
"Now, if things look bad, and it looks like your not going to make it, then you've got to get mean, I mean plum mad dog mean, 'cause if you lose your head and give up then you neither live nor win, and that's just the way it is."
- The Outlaw Josey Wales -
put me on the team that Harry aint on....I sure miss shooting him and if im on the same team as HaVoC...OMFG we will stomp a mudhole in you and walk it dry.
- YaDad -
by Chacal » Thu Jul 01, 2004 11:33 am
Democracy is a luxury. You can have that when your basic needs (such as food, water, heating, lodging) are taken care of. It's also an un-natural model of society, you have to evolve into it after getting past the stages of tribal rule and religious rule.
African, Middle-East and Far-East countries aren't there yet. You can't force a stable and successful democracy on them. Even indecently rich countries such as Saudi Arabia are a long way from democracy, they still need a few tens, possibly hundreds of years of social evolution.
The fact that western powers want to force them into democracies for the sole purpose of making business with them is not lost on them and adds to their resistance.
African, Middle-East and Far-East countries aren't there yet. You can't force a stable and successful democracy on them. Even indecently rich countries such as Saudi Arabia are a long way from democracy, they still need a few tens, possibly hundreds of years of social evolution.
The fact that western powers want to force them into democracies for the sole purpose of making business with them is not lost on them and adds to their resistance.
Chacal
[SIZE="1"][color="LightBlue"]Reporter: "Mr Gandhi, what do you think of western civilization?"
Gandhi: "I think it would be a great idea."[/color][/SIZE]
[SIZE="1"][color="LightBlue"]Reporter: "Mr Gandhi, what do you think of western civilization?"
Gandhi: "I think it would be a great idea."[/color][/SIZE]
- Ralph Wiggum
by Ralph Wiggum » Thu Jul 01, 2004 11:44 am
Originally posted by JimmyTango
But democracy is already in the middle east, has been for years.
In no way does a successful democratic government in Iraq make the President at the time 'one of the greatest presidents ever.'
And to paraphrase a JT quote from way back, communism has never been actually put in to practice anywhere [implying that it could still work]. You are seriously out of touch Jimmy Tango, unless you are talking about Israel.
- Colonel Ingus
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by Colonel Ingus » Thu Jul 01, 2004 11:54 am
Jimmy is probably refering to Turkey. Its been a democracy since what? the 1920's? somewhere around there.
And well said Chacal but I would like to forward something for discussion.
Is democracy really a desirable style of government? Pie in the sky and all it sounds great but it has proven to be fundamentally unworkable thru-out history. Jury is still out on modern western democracy and to many it does not look good. The problem with democracy is once the voter realizes they can vote themselves a sinecure from the public largesse the society starts to fall. Look to democracy in Ancient Greece for the perfect example.
In a society you have rights AND responsibilities. Nobody wants to admit to responsibilities but they scream bloody murder if you infringe their "rights". Rights by the way which are guaranteed by nothing more than an assumed social contract between citizens.
Its not an original idea from me by any means but I will toss this out for discussion. No more "one man one vote" The franchise to vote should be earned and not just automatically given upon an arbitrary age. And mind you this is not some "you should have been in the military thread" Germany has a system that although the vote is not attached to it it should be. You turn 18 in Germany and you do two years government service. Not just military (Germany really does not have a large military) but a lot of the young women go and do nursing for two years. My friend Albrecht spent two years with the fire department and is now in his 9th year as a volunteer fire fighter.
I never had a problem saying the Pledge of Alegiance here but I seem to remember saying "And to the REPUBLIC" not to the DEMOCRACY.
Back to the republic please
And well said Chacal but I would like to forward something for discussion.
Is democracy really a desirable style of government? Pie in the sky and all it sounds great but it has proven to be fundamentally unworkable thru-out history. Jury is still out on modern western democracy and to many it does not look good. The problem with democracy is once the voter realizes they can vote themselves a sinecure from the public largesse the society starts to fall. Look to democracy in Ancient Greece for the perfect example.
In a society you have rights AND responsibilities. Nobody wants to admit to responsibilities but they scream bloody murder if you infringe their "rights". Rights by the way which are guaranteed by nothing more than an assumed social contract between citizens.
Its not an original idea from me by any means but I will toss this out for discussion. No more "one man one vote" The franchise to vote should be earned and not just automatically given upon an arbitrary age. And mind you this is not some "you should have been in the military thread" Germany has a system that although the vote is not attached to it it should be. You turn 18 in Germany and you do two years government service. Not just military (Germany really does not have a large military) but a lot of the young women go and do nursing for two years. My friend Albrecht spent two years with the fire department and is now in his 9th year as a volunteer fire fighter.
I never had a problem saying the Pledge of Alegiance here but I seem to remember saying "And to the REPUBLIC" not to the DEMOCRACY.
Back to the republic please
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." ... Benjamin Franklin
- LeVar Burton
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by LeVar Burton » Thu Jul 01, 2004 1:16 pm
I follow you Chacal, but what do you think about a nation like India that has successful elections, yet goes without many of those luxuries.
As for Jimmy's comment, sorry for saying middle east. What I mean is if successful democracy in Iraq leads to successful democracy elsewhere in the Arab world, it would be a remarkable achievement. If that happens, who do you think is going to receive the lion's share of credit for putting his neck on the line and going against international opinion?
As for Jimmy's comment, sorry for saying middle east. What I mean is if successful democracy in Iraq leads to successful democracy elsewhere in the Arab world, it would be a remarkable achievement. If that happens, who do you think is going to receive the lion's share of credit for putting his neck on the line and going against international opinion?
- Ralph Wiggum
by Ralph Wiggum » Thu Jul 01, 2004 1:23 pm
To do business with them? That is a pretty ridiculous theory there Chacal. Maybe we want to force them into democracy so they don't kill us? By the way, I didn't realize you were a racist Chacal, the way you kick for insensitive language. I think people said the same thing about Japan.
Also, who is the "them" on whom this fact is not lost? The cliques who are in charge in these backwaters, or the people with the boots on their necks? By the way, in light of your views on the wretched of the earth, why should I give a flying f what Kofi Annan or 90% of the UN think about Kyoto or anything else?
Also, who is the "them" on whom this fact is not lost? The cliques who are in charge in these backwaters, or the people with the boots on their necks? By the way, in light of your views on the wretched of the earth, why should I give a flying f what Kofi Annan or 90% of the UN think about Kyoto or anything else?
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