Minnesota passes Biodiesel law!!

by **TChicken** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:07 am

Is biodiesel the One True Solution? I don't know, but it's something. And anything is better than nothing if it gets people thinking about alternative fuels. Plus, farm subsidies stay in the US and go to local farmers right?

Have you guys heard of the BMW H2R? Its a concept car that runs on hydrogen or gas. I was watching a tv interview with one of the designers on the discovery channel, and he was saying the biggest problem with creating a hyrdrogen car was the lack of infrastructure. No cars, so no infrastructure, so no cars. We have to start changing things a little at a time. The best part, no pollution problems means no small engines! V12 all the way baby.

by **cavalierlwt** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:22 am

exactly. Biodiesel isn't the magic bullet, it's a start. We need to put together a mosaic of solutions for now, and one of them might possibly blossom into the solution or we might discover that one perfect solution.

by **Alofwar** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:30 am

AAARRRGGGHHHH, IS NO ONE LISTENING TO ME? I told the solution and it works better then any other solution.

by **cavalierlwt** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:11 am

What is the miracle crop, Alowar? Remember the upside of biodiesel is it can be made from a variety of things, including vegetation that has a great density per acre.
Back to your miracle crop though, what is it, give us a link!

by **Alofwar** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:13 am

thats it though, i heard it on the news, i try to find a webpage though, and biodiesal is made partyly from diesal isent it and it still pollutes doesnt it?

by **Alofwar** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:15 am

heres a link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4284866.stm

by **cavalierlwt** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:39 am

oilseed rape is just another version of biodiesel. Minnesota's biodiesel is made mostly from soybean. B20 is 20% bio and 80 regular diesel, B100 is pure biodiesel. They all pollute, just biodiesel pollutes much less. I believe the mixture has to do with cold temperatures causing the fuel to gel. I would imagine we can find a solution for that though. Made from oilseed rape or soybean, winds up being the same substance.
actually, rapeseed looks like it produces more biodiesel per acre, could be the better route. Check this link out, shows the pros and cons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel

by **=ender=** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:43 am

I've said it before and I'll say it again: make an engine that can be fueled by human waste. You'll never run out of fuel for your entire lifetime. "Sh!tty gas mileage" would take on a new meaning! So would the phrase "fueling up" while eating Taco Bell.

by **deathBOB** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:04 am

Ok here you go: Biodiesel is just oil. Any kind of oil. Diesel engines can run on just about anything that can conveivably burn. Be it oil from plants, animals, or fossil oil. The problem with using other types of oils is that they thicken in cold weather. So the oil get processed to make it more like real diesel fuel. You could run a diesel car off of straigh vegetable oil if it was nice and warm outside but as soon as it got cold it would clog up.

As far as pollution and gas mileage goes its about the same.

You couldn't use human waste because it has very poor energy density I.E. you would need a lot of it to get anywhere. Thats the problem with hydrogen, its much less energy dense than gas.

by **BladeRunner** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:29 am

Maybe we should be looking up instead of down at fossil
fuels for energy needs.
Solar Cell efficiency has come a long way in a few years,
where will it be tomorrow.
http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/RT1999/5000/5410wilt.html

by **cavalierlwt** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:00 am

for now, we'll have to do a little of everything, biodiesel/ethanol, hybrids, electric via solar/wind/hydro, maybe nuclear. I overheard something on the news last night, didn't catch it though. I thought I heard Pennsylvania now has some plan in the works. I going to search for it and find out.

by **RCglider** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 1:39 pm

Let's get this right. Someone said they'll burn more fuel (petroleum) to drive a long distance to buy BioDiesel because it makes them feel good, even though what they're doing is actually using more energy and emitting more pollution? Now that makes sense.

Ok, the first thing to get out in the open is to explode the myth that BioDiesel will decrease the dependancy on foreign oil. It will not, period, end of story. Just because you watched a news story or some TV show like West Wing, or a commercial....whatever, it doesn't change reality.

Anytime grants and subsidies are involved, the piglets come running and tripping over each other to suck on the teets of Mother Pig, the government. If research money were offered for perpetual motion gravity wheels, magnet motors, endless power generators etc., it would be no different. In fact, I'd bet it's already been done. Some of you guys would fit very well into the myriad of free energy forums out there. Always a conspiracy somewhere, always "that close" to making a working device, always sure someone has done it at some point in history.

So now in MinnesOHta the state government politicians passed another law. Yippee! Another government mandate. Finally, a governor with guts. Hogwash. It's a start you say? Better than nothing? Think again. First, the energy (from petroleum) used to create BioDiesel is higher than what the final product puts out. Secondly, even assuming it's economically viable (and it isn't) have you ever considered how many states the size of Iowa it would take to grow enough soy beans to equal the amount of energy needed to even make a dent?

Then we hear how Europe is 20% BioDiesel. Big deal. Ever check the latest prices of fuel over there? How about their tax rates? Hmm, wonder why it's so expensive. They don't use any less "fossil fuels" to produce BioDiesel. It's just politically correct to say BioDiesel is "environmentally friendly", and a good way to get taxpayers to foot the bill for the government subsidies.

In the 90's it was ethanol/methanol. Never mind it's extremely inefficient, not to mention the damage it causes to engines. Seems to me it takes somewhere around 30% more "fossil fuels" to grow the equivalent amount of corn. It's just another unrealistic impractical solution. Growing corn for fuel is a drain on resources.

The new buzz word is hydrogen. Saying NASA used it for the Apollo missions means nothing. We're talking milli-watts versus mega-watts. Sorry, isn't going to happen anytime soon to power cars with. Hydrogen is a whole other subject anyway.

As a side note, gasoline is a by-product (waste) of crude oil refineries. It will be produced even if it's consumption is eliminated for use in cars. Think about it. Medicine, building products, tires, steel, paint, clothes....virtually nearly everything in modern society relies on OIL, and gasoline is just a by-product.

And of course there's the environmental impact of using Bio Fuel. It won't be long before the same people pushing Bio Fuels will be complaining because of all the land (jungles) being stripped to grow soy beans etc. LOL, you guys just can't win.

We're not going to substantially decrease our consumption of petroleum by converting waste animal fat into diesel fuel, or putting a million gerbils on treadmills, or by capturing the air turbulence caused by migrating birds, or using the light from fireflies, or anything like that.

If nifty obscure new energy sources can't reasonably produce at least twice as much power as the Grand Coulee Dam, it isn't going to make any difference.

I really don't think most people, and obviously some in this forum, realize the magnitude of the energy needed to supply a growing economy. If you don't care about a thriving, growing economy and a high standard of living, no offense, but maybe it's to for you to pack your bags, move to Ethiopia and live the good life. I hear there aren't many factories in North Korea either.

Electrical generation plants:
Hoover Dam = 1.5 gigawatts
Grand Coulee Dam= 6.5 gigawatts
small coal or nuclear plant= 300 megawatts
large coal or nuclear plant= 1 gigawatt

Average US electrical power consumption= 400 gigawatts

Peak US electrical power consumption is probably above 1 TERAWATT

That's just electricity.

I'm all for alternative fuels and technology (have tried several devices and in fact am installing a hydrogen assist system as I write this), but only when it's logical and feasible from an engineering standpoint. Nuclear, geo-thermal (core tapping as well), coal, natural gas....quite feasible. However, our incompetent politicians have locked our energy exploration and we are now paying the price (literally) for their incompetence. Believe it or not, there is a LOT of oil left. The problem is demand has exceeded the capacity to A)retrieve and deliver it and B)refine it. You can fully expect prices to keep rising unless a worldwide recession or depression forces prices down, which may make some of you jump for joy, but it still won't solve any problems. Either that or allow BIG OIL and investors to go get the oil/coal/natural gas.

BTW, if anyone is interested in trying to make their own bio-diesel, try this:
http://www.dieselsecrets.com/index.htm Keep it quiet though.....if too many do it the cost used vegetable will skyrocket.

When I read posts like "America uses too much energy compared to the rest of the world", all I will say is:

by **cavalierlwt** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 1:59 pm

We know that Biodiesel isn't the final solution. And I've seen studies that say there's a net loss, and studies that say there's a net gain in alt fuel production, including Biodiesel. Minnesota, by making biodiesel available at all it's stations, has made it possible for them to use biodiesel without driving an extra distance. I made the point that none of these things are THE solution, and they would start employing them all in a patchwork of solutions. I'm not saying stop using oil today. The hope is that when the existing alt-fuels start getting used on a larger scale, there may be breakthroughs that allow them to expand and reduce our dependance on foreign oil.
You talk about installing a hydrogen assist, but currently hydrogen itself is just as imperfect as these other alt-fuel sources. But if you and millions (not the whole country at once) start doing things like that, we will probably have breakthroughs, due to economies of scale. You are sending two message RCGLIDER, you are actually taking action with an alt-energy source, and at the same time you are saying alt-energy sources are stupid because today, in 2005, they're not feasible.
I guess you want to wait until science delivers the perfect solution, I think if we wait, it will be too late and we'll wind up in desperate tug of war with an expanded China and India over the oil, and then we can really kiss our economy goodbye. I think now is the time to start trying things out, rather than spending hundreds of billions every year securing the middle east, lets spend hundreds of billions a year finding a solution. If your view is the subsidies (and research grants subject to corruption just like subsidies) are worthless because of human corruption, than the game is essentially over. There's no chance of a solution, we're all doomed.
I believe we locked into a failing system because too many people just want to sit and moan that it's too hard, this solution isn't perfect, that solution isn't perfect.
What do you recommend we do?

by **CodeRed68** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:21 pm

Originally posted by RCglider

Electrical generation plants:
Hoover Dam = 1.5 gigawatts
Grand Coulee Dam= 6.5 gigawatts
small coal or nuclear plant= 300 megawatts
large coal or nuclear plant= 1 gigawatt

Average US electrical power consumption= 400 gigawatts

*Younger Dr. Emmett Brown: [running out of the room]* " 1.21 jigawatts? 1.21 jigawatts? Great Scott! "

sorry.. had to go there.. Couldnt help it, your quote just made me keep thinking about this..

by **cavalierlwt** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:26 pm

Yeah, 1.21 gigawatts went through my mind too!

I'd like to point out that coal, oil, hydro individually are insufficent to drive our electrical system, but combined they do the job.

Minnesota passes Biodiesel law!!

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