The ethanol scam and reality

[Rotoman Profile YIM]

The systems that H/K posted are getting pretty popular in new home builds around here (Northern Wisconsin). Its much more expensive than a furnace/AC system but pays for itself pretty damn quickly.

[cartboy519 Profile]

Yeah RC i was always wondering how they would do that, i mean it seems like it woudl take endless ammounts of corn to produce enough fuel to comply with all of the vehicles in the US alone. Also corn can only be grown during certain months of the year, now how will we get fuel when winter hits? We won't.

[Darknut Profile]

America should find a way to convert body fat into energy I see an abundance of it everyday.

Let's all go nuclear and use that power to covert things into combustables. Toxic waste? Launch that shit into the sun.

[cavalierlwt Profile]

Originally posted by [ECGN] BTT
The only reason "using to much energy" is such a problem is because of the source of the energy. How can we use too much of everything? Everything is energy, we just have to get it from a better source.

I agree, energy use isn't innately evil, we just need to solve the problem of a good clean renewable energy source.

[jfmaday Profile YIM]

isn't there a study going on now or has been done about trying to convert Trash into energy?

I mean the fumes from landfills that have been buried are extreemly flamable, so could there be a use there?

I also recall of some one making their motor run on monuer (sp?)

Any other studies going on out there?



But kernel burners have really gained popularity around here, and also I am seeing more custom homes using the new external wood burners. They are coming up with more and more things for homes which is always a good thing, and plus they are constantly updating the building codes in favor of the home owner, i.e. higher standards on insulation, better insulation on foundations and basement, etc...

[cavalierlwt Profile]

The thing about ethanol using more fuel than it creates is not a hard fact. Most of the stuff I hear about it being a net loss seems to come from a study done a few years back by a Cornell University study by David Pimental, and it seem like there a plenty of people who (in more recent studies) refute Pimental's findings. The study by the US Ag dept found Ethanol to have a net gain of 1.67 to 1.
There is no one perfect solution, a magic bullet that easily cheaply solves all our problems, but if we wait for that magic bullet, then we will be flat out screwed. I think it's better to start putting together a patchwork of different solutions, and lettting the economies of scale do it's work in refining, advancing some of the technologies and discarding the losers of the bunch.

Here's some links on other views of ethanol.

http://www.agriculture.com/ag/story.jhtml?storyid=/templatedata/ag/story/data/agNews_050719crETHANOL.xml&catref=ag1001
http://www.ncga.com/ethanol/main/killing_myths.htm
http://www.ethanolrfa.org/objects/documents/files/net_energy_balance_2004.pdf

[]DP[Artie Profile]

Originally posted by RCglider
I have a Popular Science magazine from 1979. It had an article about converting coal to gasoline. At the time I think gas prices were about $.70/gal, but the cost for coal gasoline was over $.90, making it economically uncompetitive at the time. Why hasn't that been an issue now? One problem is Clinton locked the largest discovered clean coal reserves on earth by issuing an executive order proclaiming several million acres of desert a "national park".....refer to James Riati.

Then there's the hybrids....don't even get me started on those.

There is a rather large project recently started up in Penn doing exactly this with coal. The pilot program went extremely good and the Penn governer signed a contract with the companies doing it to use the fuel in the states fleet, so that the companies making it can ramp up production considerably without the worry of being left hanging out to dry. The state may also actually be directly subsidizing the venture, but i don't remember the details of that end off hand. It looks very promising.

The biggest scam is the so called 'hydrogen fuel cells'. Most all the hydrogen on earth is locked up in water, or other similar covalent substances. Seperating it requires a decent amount of energy more than you get from burning it, creating a negattive energy equation that must be provided by another energy source, primarily fossil fuels. So instead of burning tons of gas directly (in a hydrogen car), the fossil fuels that actually provide the energy are burned somewhere else like in a power plant, providing the power to seperate the hydrogen that is then used in the car. Does 0 to move away from using fossil fuels, only shifts the location at which they are burned, and will only allow car companies to sell extremely expensive cars to uneducated comsumers under the pretense that by buying them "you're reducing our reliance on fossil fuels", which is a complete crock of shit. The fact that a few billion dollars in grant money is in the new Fed budget for 'hydrogen fuel cell research' is truely sad. The few billion will be used, nothing will come of it, and noone will know the difference except for the peeps that got the few billion.....

What they need to do is legalize hemp. Acre for acre hemp yields 4x the biomass of corn, and it grows in all climates from the equator to the arctic circle. It was legal from the birth of this country til 1923. George Washington and Ben Franklin grew extremely large fields which were used to manufacture paper, to eliminate our reliance on British paper, which at the time was very important. But that's a whole nother issue in and of itself and the politics involved run so deep that it'll never never happen.

[PraiseA||ah Profile]

Originally posted by ]DP[Artie

What they need to do is legalize hemp. Acre for acre hemp yields 4x the biomass of corn, and it grows in all climates from the equator to the arctic circle. It was legal from the birth of this country til 1923. George Washington and Ben Franklin grew extremely large fields which were used to manufacture paper, to eliminate our reliance on British paper, which at the time was very important. But that's a whole nother issue in and of itself and the politics involved run so deep that it'll never never happen.

Yes but.. did you ever drive your car on weeeeeeeeeed, man?







Seriously though.. I do agree with what you have to say about hydrogen and perhaps even hemp, Artie.

[]DP[Artie Profile]

Originally posted by PraiseA||ah
Yes but.. did you ever drive your car on weeeeeeeeeed, man?

Why yes i have i days gone by, though it was never in the gastank.

[JimmyTango Profile]

All I gotta say is there is some amazingly false information here.

The answer lies within a country in South America known as Brazil.

Research, and you will see just have fucked over every single person in power has fucked us. Democrat and Republican.

For those who have been lied to, ethanol will not be more expensive, it is around $1.05 a gallon in Brazil right now. There is plenty to manufacturer it, half the cars in Brazil are using it and lastly, corn is NOT the only way to produce it, just about any vegitable can, sugarcane, etc.

All moderm engines can run on 10% erthanol. All modern engines, with MINIMAL chage can run on 100% ethonal.

Ask GM, Ford and Chrystler. Just don't as their US firms, ask the firms in Brazil, where every single car they produce has two tanks, one for regular gas, one for 100% ethanol.

Why is Brazil so far ahead of us? Oh, I am sure many of you read about the last oil shortage as most of the people here would not have been alive. Where our country talks about spending billions on drilling for more oil in Alaska and off shore, Brasil said 'fuck this bullshit, these asshats are NOT screwing us over again, by X date all gas stations must have at least 1 ethanol pump.'

GM, Ford, Chrysler, all car companies operating in Brazil adapted. Here in the US you hear how 'hard and expensive it is,' yet in Brazil you hear 'it's really easy.' This from the SAME car manufacturers. Difference is Brazil forces it, in the US the car companies force the politician's hands.

[cavalierlwt Profile]

Yep. We seem to be able to pull off nearly any high tech innovation we put our mind to, we constantly invent new industries, new ways of doing business and making money, we adapt to technological changes enthusiastically. Then when it comes to cars and energy we suddenly become weak, stupid, helpless.

[Conscious* Profile]

Just give me one ounch of negative matter and my car will be good for ever.

[Ldsmith104 Profile]

For the question on swamp gas (landfill gas) They do use it in some places for energy. We have a Cargill plant here http://www.cargill.com/ and they have an agreement with the local landfill; The landfill piped the gas to there plant and gives them the gas for free, however Cargill has to use all of it. What ever is left the land fill has to burn off which costs the landfill money. The problem is the supply fluctuates and Cargill doesn't' have the (burner) capacity to burn it fast enough when there is a large amount and they can't store it. They just bought another burner (Works like a coal furnace and makes steam) to go with the one that they have so when the supply is high they can use it all, when the supply is low the new burning can switch and run off natural gas, lowering there overall coal consumption (very dirty fuel)

[Gen. Ouch Profile Website]

Originally posted by Hunter/Killer
not true.

Read this, it works off of the heat in the ground not vent heat.
http://www.alliantenergygeothermal.com/stellent2/groups/public/documents/pub/geo_wha_001202.hcsp#P-4_0

i was thinking more of the kind all of greenland is using. they use the steam from the vents to heat water which they cerculate around the house, they also generate all there electricity from it as well by using the steam to spin turbines.

after reading what that site had to say i can see how that would work too, if the temp outside was 32 or below, 50 would feel pretty good. doesn't seem like it would be very efficiant though, it would take to long for the air to heat up if it was passing through something that was only 50 degrees.




after i read that post i made a second time i went to tie myself a noose but i couldn't find any rope and a belt of shoelases just seems like someone would do while in jail. i'd like to apoligize to everyone who red that, hopefully it was awhile after anyone ate because that meal was probably a waste.:

[RCglider Profile]

Originally posted by JimmyTango
All I gotta say is there is some amazingly false information here.

The answer lies within a country in South America known as Brazil.

Research, and you will see just have fucked over every single person in power has fucked us. Democrat and Republican.

For those who have been lied to, ethanol will not be more expensive, it is around $1.05 a gallon in Brazil right now. There is plenty to manufacturer it, half the cars in Brazil are using it and lastly, corn is NOT the only way to produce it, just about any vegitable can, sugarcane, etc.

All moderm engines can run on 10% erthanol. All modern engines, with MINIMAL chage can run on 100% ethonal.

Ask GM, Ford and Chrystler. Just don't as their US firms, ask the firms in Brazil, where every single car they produce has two tanks, one for regular gas, one for 100% ethanol.

Why is Brazil so far ahead of us? Oh, I am sure many of you read about the last oil shortage as most of the people here would not have been alive. Where our country talks about spending billions on drilling for more oil in Alaska and off shore, Brasil said 'fuck this bullshit, these asshats are NOT screwing us over again, by X date all gas stations must have at least 1 ethanol pump.'

GM, Ford, Chrysler, all car companies operating in Brazil adapted. Here in the US you hear how 'hard and expensive it is,' yet in Brazil you hear 'it's really easy.' This from the SAME car manufacturers. Difference is Brazil forces it, in the US the car companies force the politician's hands.

Some forms of plants work well for ethanol, others do not. Corn just happens to be our most abundant crop. There's a reason why that is, and the original purpose was not for ethanol.

We have more oil in North America than all the Middle East combined, if not the whole world. Why not get it? What is it with this fascination of "alternative" energy anyway? There is no shortage of oil. If you'll notice I never refer to it as fossil fuels because I don't believe oil, natural gas, helium etc. comes from fossils at all; haven't for over 20 years. If there ever was a conspiracy it's the fallacy of "finite" resources of "fossil fuels".

I guess you didn't read the part about Brazil? They grow SUGAR CANE which is not possible in North America. SUGAR CANE is highly preferred for alcohol production and Brazil has the perfect climate for it. Cellulose products like switchgrass may have some promise, but is it practical? Do you realize just how much farmland is needed to grow that much switchgrass?

Brazil's ethanol program isn't as rosey a picture as it's painted. They are now beginning to have supply problems. So much so the government lowered the minimum ethanol blend from 25% to 20%. Contrary to popular belief most of Brazil's cars do not run on 100% ethanol. They claim they will within a year; time will tell.

My my, what about the beloved rain forests in Brazil? Right now they dedicate about 13 million acres to sugar cane crops. It just so happens the Amazon forests would yield about double the harvest. Brazil will soon need to decide how important ethanol is versus food, and that is part of the dilemma with biofuels. Incidentally, about 40% of the Brazillian population is malnourished. Pretty sad considering Brazil calls itself the agricultural garden of the world.

Also not widely known, burning the cane fields is a normal part of sugar cane harvesting. This practice emits enormous amounts of pollutants into the air and damages the top soil, not to mention health hazards for the surrounding population. They are trying to eliminate the need for this procedure.

To replace just one year's supply of gasoline with corn ethanol in the U.S. it would require farmland easily the size of Texas.

And no, it's not a minimal feat to convert a current car running on gasoline to 100% alcohol; it's a corrosive chemical and requires components that resist it, i.e. stainless steel and only certain plastics and rubber (buna). Also, the fuel delivery system (carb/fuel injection) among other things must be modified. But hey, go ahead and keep pumping that ethanol into your car until your heart's content.

I'm not against striving for new and ingenious forms of energy, but bio-fuels are not the answer on a large scale. Neither is putting a million squirrels in a cage to turn a generator.

P.S. For Hunter/Killer....I know a guy that has a heat pump which utilizes geothermal heat from the ground. It doubles as an air conditioner in the summer. Seems like he said it cost him around $2500? He also uses a corn burner. Needless to say his utility bills are very low.