World War 3 imminent

by **SavageParrot** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:35 pm

Originally posted by RCglider
The United Nothings is the modern day repository for anti-Semitism.

Wow just wow. The whole world is anti-semitic because they'd like Israel to stop occupying other people's territory. No offence but that could be the most insanely stupid remark ever made on these forums. I'm sorry if this sounds like flaming but I mean really, some things just have to be called for what they are.

Originally posted by RCglider
Hezbollah is a satellite government for Iran

Hezbollah is not a governement.

Originally posted by RCglider
Where does Hezbollah get their financial support? Mainly Iran and Syria, but also from right here in the USA via so-called non-profit humanitarian Muslim groups sending money to their favorite terrorist. The government has cracked down on many of them, but it’s still prevalent. Saudi Arabia has unquestionably financed world terrorism as well, however they are more worried about Iran than we are.

I'll give you US funding of the IRA for 10 points...

Originally posted by RCglider
We allowed the U.N. to "negotiate" peace in Korea and look where we're at now.

The war in Korea was also the UN in action but then I guess that doesn't fit into your 'the UN never takes any action' speach so we'll skim over it shall we?

Korea's a pretty good example of how not all things can be solved by having a bloodbath er I mean war...

Originally posted by RCglider
The United Nothings have been in Lebanon since 1978 "monitoring" Hezbollah. After calling for Israel's withdrawal in 2000 pursuant to R1559 requiring the dismantling of Hezbollah both militarily and politically, Israel complied. The United Nothings had 2000 "peace keepers" supposedly again "monitoring" compliance to 1559 and gee, right under their noses, somehow 13,000 missiles slipped right by them. Isn't that interesting? And they didn't even know these munitions were hidden right next to their outposts. Hezbollah has been lobbing missiles into Israel for the last two years. What was Israel expected to do, just keep taking it? If Lebanon is siding with Hezbollah, bent on the destruction of Israel, then form an army and attack them.

Which is fine but if they want to fight hezbollah they need to actually hit hezbollah and not hospitals schools, red cross ambulances and CLEARLY MARKED UN observation posts. If you want to fight a war fight a war. Bombing civilian targets because they say missiles were fired from there is cowardly and immoral. They say they can see the missiles get fired but not hezbollah leaving afterwards. That sounds like grade 1 bullshit to me.

Originally posted by RCglider
Can anyone submit a video showing Muslims anywhere in the world not celebrating in the streets after 9/11?

No because TV camera crews don't go and film the empty streets in moderate muslim areas. Frankly video footage of empty streets just ins't sexy enough for the evening news. The absence of this footage proves nothing other than that tv news crews bend the truth to make their reports look more exciting.

Originally posted by RCglider
As for talk about torture, sorry folks, there is aggressive interrogation techniques not recognized as “torture”. No Allah, sleep deprivation is not torture.

Yes it is. The Geneva convention says it is as does the United Nations convention against torture

Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

Originally posted by RCglider
BTW, the Geneva Convention does not apply here; don’t bother arguing otherwise.

Yes it does. Article 2 clearly states that the convention applies in both war time and peace time to it's signatories. You signed it and you are bound to it making Guantamo ILLEGAL. Unless you want to argue that they are not POW's in which case your whole extended speach above about how we are in a war and fighting for our lives can pretty much be struck from the record...

I believe the US constitution is also pretty clear on being imprisoned without legal representation. So either way they are being held illegally...

Also talking about the UN like it's a foreign body when you are one of the chief members looks pretty silly just so you know. It's like a senator bitching about how useless the whole senate is. Did you ever consider that the reason they can't do anything about the situation is because you have kept their hands firmly bound?

by **CreepingCharlie** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:36 pm

Originally posted by SavageParrot
Which is fine but if they want to fight hezbollah they need to actually hit hezbollah and not hospitals schools, red cross ambulances and CLEARLY MARKED UN observation posts. If you want to fight a war fight a war. Bombing civilian targets because they say missiles were fired from there is cowardly and immoral.

I guess you don't know the meaning of fighting terrorist. This is a war, civilians are going to get hurt get over it. Stop complaining. Do you see a big flag over hezbollah strongholds that says SHOOT HERE? I certainly don't. They will hide behind civilian structures such as schools, hopitals and even the U.N. post. Its called urban warfare/Gurilla warfare. Also have you ever heard of ARTILLERY SHELLS hitting within 2 meters of hits target and not affecting its surroundings? Why don't you go tell terrorist to stop targeting civilians and fight soldiers. You tell them that its cowardly and immoral. See how they take it. Hope your head isn't in a box.

by **SavageParrot** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:17 pm

Not my point, you expect civilain casualties that's war. My point is they say they can see the missiles being fired but they don't appear to be able to see the missile crew leave which they must have done because they sure as hell weren't in these buildings when the missiles hit. So what I am saying is where's the proof they were even there is the first place? Just how much are we supposed to take one trust?

Take that UN observation post for example. It's clearly marked on all israeli military maps and it's on most civilian maps as well. Add to this the fact that the UN operatives on site repeatedly informed the israelis that they were being targetted by artilery. Finally the post is eliminated by a precision guided bomb. Now how the fuck can that be a mistake? The position is known about, it identified itself as neutral and yet we are supposed to believe that both the artillery fire that landed on and around it's location and the highly expensive guided weapon were mistakes?

There is only so much you can take on faith. If Israel has reasons for targetting these building then they need to start showing some otherwise people are pretty quickely going to get the impression that hezbollah was not who was being targeted...

And yes terrorists are cowardly and immoral. Never said they weren't. 2 wrongs don't make a right though. I don't believe that being anti-terrorist means we should turn a blind eye to the outrages perpetrated by legitimate militaries.

by **Alofwar** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:30 pm

I support Israel bombing hezbollah targets, i have always been on Israels side in its conflicts. But i think Israel may be going to far with some of what its doing. I can understand bombing infrastructure and Hezbollah used buildings, but do they really need to bomb a toliet paper factory? What are they trying to do, make Hezbollah go around with poo on their asses? The bombing of the UN observation post does look strongly like it was delibrate

1) The operators in the post phoned the Israeli army over 10 times alerting them to their position.

2) The building had big white letters on it that read "U.N" aswell as big blue UN flags.

3) The Post was clearly marked on Israeli maps.

4) It was not an unguided free aim bomb. It was a precision guided, pin point accurate bomb, so they were aiming for the bunker. Although those bombs were made in the US, and we all know how accurate Americans are at bombing.

by **cavalierlwt** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:53 pm

Hitting the power stations and such infrastructure is a bad, bad move. They hit the airport 'cuz they didn't want Hezbollah flying the hostages out, or more arms shipment in from Iran/Syria.

I'll take a swing at World Leadership for a moment:
Maybe the better way would have been for them to very carefully hit selected Hezbollah sites, then stop and tell Lebanon to send it's troops in and eject Hezbolla/find the hostages. Give them a certain amount of time, then resume limited strikes again, give Lebanon another ultimatum.
At least in the interval it might allow for the civilians to put some pressure on Lebanon's govt to eject Hezbolla and find the soldiers.

This security zone is going to be f*ing nightmare though.

As for the UN, the organization is screwed. Unless America is driving toward something, nothing happens. On the other hand, if America doesn't want something to happen, we can veto it, along with just a few other countries on the Security Council. This is a *bad* setup. There needs to be a way to either override the veto with perhaps 3/5ths majority or something, or do away with the veto. How the hell did they decide on exactly 5 anyway? Why France and not Germany? Or China, but not India?

The UN needs to be able to act without America. They didn't really move on Rwanda, Kosovo, and now Darfur. True, America didn't push on these either, but you don't want a whole world body that can't move unless one or two countries provides the motivation or agrees.

I love my country, but that veto is just poison, it hurts us more than it helps us in the long run.

by **[ecgn] btt** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:56 pm

OMG can you people type. How bout I go start WW3 so you guys can stop arguing about it.

by **cavalierlwt** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:06 pm

We ain't arguing, we're just talking real loud!!

by **SavageParrot** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:23 pm

LoL never saw the problem with argument myself. I'm from a big family full of historians. Arguing is a way of life

by **Evan** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:23 pm

You know, I'd trust Israel in fighting a war than any other country.

That, and I believe what RCGlider is saying. I have yet to see the UN do anything except pass resolutions and "give aid" to civilians. You want people to stop doing shit in this world, go and stop them. Yes, I know I'm only 19 but the UN seems to be too passive in world affairs.

An embargo won't help - you only cut off supplies to the people you are trying to help.

UN Resolutions won't help - anyone not in the UN (terrorists) and anyone big enough can disregard UN resolutions.

Humanitarian aid doesn't help - terrorists and dictators and corrupt government steal the aid given.

It's about time someone (Israel) has finally stepped up and said enough is enough with terrorism. Israel is fighting for it's right to survive. Why it bothers some of you, and why some of you think Israel is wrong is beyond me!

by **cavalierlwt** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:32 pm

I don't think Israel is wrong to protect itself, but I do think they should have gone back to pre-1967 borders, and built their wall there. Better yet, set up a two mile security zone, one mile within Israel, one mile within the neighboring countries involved in the conflicts, and have the UN patrol the security zone and checkpoints (entry/exit points).

I don't think the Arabs will ever stop hating Israel or wanting to destroy it, but it would be a lot better if Israel had clean hands, same for the US. It would make things more cut-n-dried.

by **SavageParrot** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:39 pm

Nicely put.

by **Hash** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:54 pm

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/27/zawahiri.tape/index.html

This is why we are getting involved, the western countries will be drawn into this war whether we like or not, the muslims want death and destruction, they may get it.

by **RCglider** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:39 pm

Wow just wow. The whole world is anti-semitic because they'd like Israel to stop occupying other people's territory. No offence but that could be the most insanely stupid remark ever made on these forums. I'm sorry if this sounds like flaming but I mean really, some things just have to be called for what they are.

No need to apologize, I'm a big boy.

Yes, the world is largely anti-Semitic. No offense intended, but I don't think you understand what's really going on in the Middle East today or the history of it....that's ok, most do not. The idea of Israel's neighbors is not to stop Israel from "occupying" their neighbor's land. When Hezbollah, Hamas et al refer to occupying, they mean Israel occupying ISRAEL. If you'd like to dispute that, you're going to look pretty silly when I'm done. Trust me, you don't want to go there.

Please provide examples of favorable resolutions toward Israel. That's what I asked for. Today the U.S. blocked a U.N. resolution to condemn Israel from hitting their outpost. The cat's out of the bag; Hezbollah purposely drew IDF fire on the U.N.

Hezbollah is not a governement.

It is a satellite government of Iran which holds the entire country of Lebanon hostage. Remember, R1559 called for the dismantling of Hezbollah in 2000, along with Syria removing their influence.

The war in Korea was also the UN in action but then I guess that doesn't fit into your 'the UN never takes any action' speach so we'll skim over it shall we?

Korea's a pretty good example of how not all things can be solved by having a bloodbath er I mean war...

No, it was the first show of impotence by the U.N. that no amount of Viagra could fix. The point is, peace is not the abscence of war. Negotiating with North Korea to end hostilities gave us a ruthless two generations of ruthless dictatorship. Can you say with a straight face the North Korean people are better off?

I wouldn't have brought it up if the purpose was to skim over it. McArthur knew what needed to be done.

Which is fine but if they want to fight hezbollah they need to actually hit hezbollah and not hospitals schools, red cross ambulances and CLEARLY MARKED UN observation posts. If you want to fight a war fight a war. Bombing civilian targets because they say missiles were fired from there is cowardly and immoral. They say they can see the missiles get fired but not hezbollah leaving afterwards. That sounds like grade 1 bullshit to me.

If Hezbollah wants to fight Israel, they need to wear uniforms at all times, not just for their carnival parades, not hide behind women and stop using hospitals, schools, red cross ambulances and CLEARLY MARKED UN observation posts. If you want to fight a war, there are rules of war. :rotflmao:

This would be funny if it weren't so serious.. Hezbollah can indisciminately fire missles all day long, run away and hide, and Israel is supposed to sit back and absorb it. Who are the cowards? They have drones and ground intel btw.

No because TV camera crews don't go and film the empty streets in moderate muslim areas. Frankly video footage of empty streets just ins't sexy enough for the evening news. The absence of this footage proves nothing other than that tv news crews bend the truth to make their reports look more exciting.

Oh boy....what truth are they bending? You realize TV crews are not allowed to film without a Hezbollah escort, right? Also, Israel dropped leaflets warning the population to evacuate. What film footage are you wishing to see?

Yes it is. The Geneva convention says it is as does the United Nations convention against torture

I don't recall ever stating torture was allowed. You seem to think no matter what type of combatant a detainee is or what act they committed.

The U.S. Supreme Court's recent decision concerning Guantanimo Bay only forced the issue to go to Congress, which is why they haven't been tried yet. Much to your dismay, any hopes of early release however for these terrorists (or do you consider them petty criminals?) is not forthcoming. By Judicial fiat, the Supreme Court has effectively assumed the role of Commander-in-Chief, never before done in our history. Notice they didn't dare go as far as to say they are being held illegally. This is as silly as their idiotic eminent domain decision which basically allows any local/state municipality to take any American's property for any reason, which had never been done before in our history. Hopefully one or two more of these dinosaurs will go extinct. Regardless, the situation will be remedied.

Yes, we signed on to the GC for the Iraq war for IRAQI soldiers and IRAQI civilians.

Please note under GC there are different rules applied to uniformed soldiers of a nation-state versus civilians of that nation-state. The Geneva Conventions make this a clear distinction.

As it applies to civilians, quoting from Article 5 of the Third Convention "if a civilian is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the States, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in favor of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State."
In other words, name rank and serial number is all a POW is required to give, but it doesn't apply to civilians. At the same time, torture is clearly prohibited.

The Taliban lost their GC POW status once they violated the GC by not wearing uniforms, not having a command structure and not following rules of war. They still retained certain basic humanity rights, but not POW status.

The U.S. passed it's own laws regulating the treatment of unlawful combatants not covered by GC. It is not as stringent as the GC. Simply stated "the infliction of severe mental or physical pain" is prohibited.

The bottom line is, there is no "one size fits all" for every detainee.

I would remind you that saboteurs were summarily shot during World War II. Quite obviously most of today's generation of Americans and Europeans have not been directly affected by terrorism and massive war casualties. I'll guarantee if your family is hit, all this talk about demanding "rights" for terrorists will go out the window. You'll want to shoot them yourself.

Look up Operation Pastorious. FDR didn't play games with these people.

It's really puzzling why you continue defending these terrorist bastards. What exactly do you consider torture? Somehow I don't correlate forcing a man to wear women's underwear to sawing off a man's head while he's still alive.

Do you consider Navy Seal training torture? It's certainly far worse treatment than any of your Gitmo buddies are getting....

BTW, our Constitution applies to American citizens. Al Qaeda does not have my "Rights". What do you want next, Social Security benefits for them?

by **CreepingCharlie** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:42 pm

Call me ignorant, but I will let Israel do what they have to do to get rid of hezbollah.

The U.N. is just a collective 192 countries. The UN is as good as the countries involved want it to be. The UN is powerless to groups who refuse to "obey" them. If the UN is actually worth something, then they should be able to act with power and actually make their demand mean something and not have any empty resolutions, or say "Please don't do that Please" and just give them a warning.
I'll be rash. I don't like the UN. I believe they are a worthless organization much like the League of Nations back in 1919. All they can do is give sations on people and thats it. With 192 countries members, I only see the US and others trying to do something. And we don't act to the Rwanda genocide, we get critizied for not doing anything about it. Well what about the other damn countries??? How come they didn't do anything about it??
Don't care who or what someone else says. Nothing will change my opinion. I have my right to my opinion on things.

Cavalierwt to answer your question it was the 5 main victors of WWII. In no way did they want Germany to have power again.

by **CodeRed68** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:29 pm

I hope Isreal bombs the hell out of Hezbollah until there is nothing left. It is a long time coming for them. They brought this upon themselves. Hezbollah should also not hide themselves or thier weapons amongst the civilian population otherwise, as we have seen, they are putting thier own supporters in the line of fire.
Hezbollah has launched 150 missles in the last 24 hours blindly into Isreali cities, aimed at innocent civilians. I don't know but to me this doesn't seem like good, strategic, military targeting of the Isreali army. More like senseless murders of innocent civilians. Oh wait, that is what they are best at. They've had 25+ years of practice at it.
I don't want to pretend to know everything about the ME but from what I understand, the whole reason Isreal occupied places like the Gaza Strip, southern Lebanon, the Golan Heights, etc. was to prevent the terrorists from using these places as sites to launch missles into the Isreali population. Isreal finally pulls out of these places after taking a lot of heat in recent years and what happens? The Islamic terrorists step right up and use these places to launch thier missles again. No wonder Isreal is like WTF, and making them pay.

World War 3 imminent

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