University Shooting Worst in US History...and I'm there now

[SavageParrot Profile]

BTT]Parrot you have to understand that the U.S. is founded on a piece pf paper. What is written on that paper is something that most of us will die for. Changing it is not a popular view.

I get that but at no point in the constitution does it say that you have the right to bear all types of guns in all situations. What it actually says is:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Seems pretty clear to me you can ban handguns and automatic rifles and still be well within the confines of that amendment, in fact, so far as I can make out, seeing as the right to bear arms is only expressed as having value for maintaining a militia you could even ban all guns so long as you made state run militia which supplied arms to anyone who needed them within a supervised situation. Treating this law like it gives a god given right to take a machine gun shopping is a grave misreading of it. You can't just read the second half of the clause and ignore the first.

In any case the situation now is more than a little different than it was then. Then they were expecting any number of european powers to attempt to recolonise the states they needed a militia becasue they couldn't afford to spare either the manpower or the coin to equip and maintain a professional army that could reasonably be expected to defend them against all attacks. It was as such a law written for a very specific situation which doesn't really apply in todays USA.

It's also not a law written to protect the individual from the state itself as it's often quoted as being. It's about resistance to foreign powers not to opressive government. There are any number of amendments to your constitution that are designed to curb the power of the state over the individual, the second is not one of them.

[CreepingCharlie Profile]

Umm...most states don't allow the use or purchase of automatic rifles, (machine guns). Take a look at this, http://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/state/
If your saying that there isn't any laws preventing us from purchasing any gun in the world your wrong. There are laws that prevent the sale of certain types of guns.
The swiss are given fully auto rifles for protection against foriegn invasion. Now isn't that odd. They have one of the least crime rates and gun laws are almost non existant.

[[ecgn] btt Profile]

This is not about guns. There are millions of guns in the hands of millions of people in this country. Why are they not shooting everything up. Because they were raised right by their parents and know right from wrong and understand the responsibility that comes with a gun and living in a society.


I don't know where it comes from or why it is happening. But more and more people grow up in this country and don't have a grasp on right and wrong or responsibility. This alone will cause the shit to hit the fan someday.

[Chacal Profile Website]

You can't put the blame on one single factor. On controversial subjects, people tend to oversimplify. One example is the old "guns don't kill people" mantra. Of course they don't start shooting on their own, but to say they don't facilitate or provoke killings is over-simplification (or voluntary blindness).

One thing is for sure, there is a common formula that has proven again and again to be deadly (and will continue to grow):

Frustrated guy
+ western culture glorifies material riches (creates frustration)
+ american culture glorifies use of violence as solution to any problem
+ american culture and judicial system promotes punishment over prevention
+ media glorify killers (publish name, history, posthumous message)
+ easy access to guns
= trouble

[[ecgn] btt Profile]

Your first two points can be countered with good parenting Chacal. With the right mindset, wanting material riches can drive someone to be very successful. The same with use of violence. With the right mindset someone can walk away without violence and know they are the better person. Believe me I know the effects of good parenting. I have the best in the world. The older I get the more I realize that. It is not so much what they said to me growing up, but more the way the carried themselves in day to day life. If only every kid had what I had growing up, trust me this world would be a better place. This even fixes your third point because there would be no need for 90% of the justice system.

[cavalierlwt Profile]

The guy was just a nutjob plain and simple. There's no protection, no remedy with people like him. Sooner or later they pop up and we take losses. Guns do make it easier to kill, but someone like this would have just done something else--maybe less deadly (a knife?) or maybe more deadly, like chaining the doors shut and then lighting the building on the fire, or poisoning a bunch of food, etc.
At this point the country needs to move on and not blow this out of proportion. I know that sounds callous, but it's the reality of life. A couple years ago a tsunami popped up on a nice sunny day and killed a quarter of million people. We can obsess and live in fear and turmoil, or we can just accept the fact that bad things happen to innocent people.

[Alofwar Profile]

Umm...most states don't allow the use or purchase of automatic rifles, (machine guns). Take a look at this, http://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/state/
If your saying that there isn't any laws preventing us from purchasing any gun in the world your wrong. There are laws that prevent the sale of certain types of guns.
The swiss are given fully auto rifles for protection against foriegn invasion. Now isn't that odd. They have one of the least crime rates and gun laws are almost non existant.

Thats because of Swiss culture. American culture has developed in a way thats meant there are alot of pyhcotic, unstable individuals, aswell as strong gang culture. Switzerland is a very small country, and has always had this culture of neutrality and a very peaceful culture, this has ment its population are very pleasant controlled people who can be trusted with automatic weapons.

[CreepingCharlie Profile]

But saying that I can go out and buy a machine gun or any other automatic firearm is absurd. I can't even buy a pistol yet, not 21. The only thing I can get is a rifle or shotgun which I still haven't gotten yet.

[SavageParrot Profile]

Um Yeah about switzerland...

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/09/27/switzerland.shooting/

You can keep saying it's not about guns all you like but if he didn't have a gun he couldn't have killed all those people. He may have wanted to, he may even have tried to to it with another weapon but the plain simple fact is he would not have been able to inflict the damage that he did without a gun.

Sure getting rid of the guns would be hard but this line that it is nieve to think that removing the guns would remove the problem is no less nieve than thinking that the problem is fixable in the first place. You take away the guns and you take away the the primary means of doing this sort of thing. There is always going to be a percentage of the population that is prone to this sort of violence, it's physiological inevitablity; some minds are always going to be wired up the wrong way.

[PafMei Profile]

Um Yeah about switzerland...

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/09/27/switzerland.shooting/

You can keep saying it's not about guns all you like but if he didn't have a gun he couldn't have killed all those people. He may have wanted to, he may even have tried to to it with another weapon but the plain simple fact is he would not have been able to inflict the damage that he did without a gun.

Sure getting rid of the guns would be hard but this line that it is nieve to think that removing the guns would remove the problem is no less nieve than thinking that the problem is fixable in the first place. You take away the guns and you take away the the primary means of doing this sort of thing. There is always going to be a percentage of the population that is prone to this sort of violence, it's physiological inevitablity; some minds are always going to be wired up the wrong way.

Savage it is easy for you to say these thise. England is still the biggest police state in the world. With over a millon camera in London alone, the people there are just as willing as American's to give up Liberty's for freedom.
"The person who gives up liberty for freedom deserves neither"

[Darknut Profile]

Well, he could have driven a truck full of fertilizer/some other fast igniting chemicals into the building and killed ten times more people which would probably have been easier.

[SavageParrot Profile]

I don't consider being filmed on cctv an infringement of my liberties any more than i think being glanced at by a stranger is. So long as the cameras aren't in my house who gives a crap. I am out in public anyway...

Also don't believe everything you read. Not all those cameras are govermnent owned and a good percentage of them are traffic cameras designed to run the congestion charge system. I don't really see how that makes up a police state but whatever.

[Alofwar Profile]

Pafmei, the UK was the first modern liberal state, we invented the concepts of modern liberty and freedom 100 years before the USA even existed.

Also were alot more free in the UK than people in the USA in most ways. You may think your free from your government but the USA government is significantly more corrupt than the UK one. Bush is working for the large oil companies practically, they might aswell have him on their payroll, Guantanimo bay and the Patriot act are barbaric abuses of human rights and infringe on civil liberties beyond belief. We may have CCTV cameras on public streets but what the problem with that? If its in public the police could see you, or you could be reported for breaking the law anyway so the cameras just make law enforcement and crime solving alot easier, if you've got nothing hide, you've got nothing to fear.

Also a little bit of state intervention is a good thing. I favour the view of Positive liberalism as oppose to negative liberalism. Positive Liberalism is where freedom and equality are central to life and freedom from government intervention is important but sometimes the government must intervien to ensure freedom and equality for all. e.g. Race discrimination act, gender discrimination act, age discrimintaion act are all examples of government interviening to ensure freedom and equality for all. Negative liberalism is where the sate does nothing to ensure freedom and equality for all, it just sits back and does nothing believe people will do it by themsleves.

On top of this we have much for freedom in terms of lifestyle choice, the government here no longer says a choice of lifestyle is wrong and makes it illegal or impossible, here women are free to have abortions and easily (in South Dakota USA there is only 1 abortion clinic in the middle of the desert) gay couple are free to live together and even have civil partnerships, you may think homosexuality is wrong, but what gives you the right to enforce that view on everyone else? they should have the right to choose.

Long story short, UK more free than USA.

[Chacal Profile Website]

We were bracing for a flame war on gun control, instead it's turning into a pissing contest on which country is more free.

The topic is the VA shooting. Back on topic please or






Besides, the point was settled long ago. Canada wins. No cameras AND no Republicans.

[Alofwar Profile]

Viva Canada!!!