stacked teams, 3 min rounds on beach, no sportsmanship

[magus]

some of you have a need to see your words on the internet.

hypocrite!

[Zabad Profile]

[pinkname Profile]

Pinkname- everyone has a right to their own opinion about how a game should be played, but you should be aware that there is no right way, so you should be as critical of your own assumptions as you are of everyone elses. What name did you play under at Allstars?

I had about 50 names throughout the years making me unknown to most pubbers. I guess 3v3player1, HMSSagent006 and SpectreMr_Largo were the names I was using those times. Maybe Nice_Dreams, Lebowski and such :) Jesus is a quite new name of mine and the most consistent, I love it. :D I didn't play much on allstars (compared to other servers), played there only when proper pubs were gone. Ofc. allstars was MUCH better in teamplay aspects than ECGN (ECGN is still a bad joke in comparison to most old servers), but it was purely for fragging that I'm not much interested in. If I had to create some scoring I'd say ECGN nowadays is 3/10, allstars was 5/10, TCG 8/10 etc etc. I admit that it's quite stupid to score anything since everything was (is) changing always, it's just for sortof a comparison.

On ECGN 2-3 ppl playing smartly together are enough to win matches, just because the opponents are not prepared for such a case. When this happens only on one side, most of the other side just screams and whines. If you want to see how it should be done properly, just check how infensus worked, their qcon demos are available, _imo_ that inf was far the best team ever (simple proof for nonbelievers: check their results :d).

No right way: ofc there's no right way, that's why I said pls feel free to disagree. But I think I'm one of the guys who have spent the most time ever with rtcw, I played many different variations (do you even remember onelife servers?), built up a few teams, wrote plenty of kilometers about strategies and psichology even from a scientifical approach (math+game theory: part of my profession), worked out and spread a way of communicating in text much faster than on vent (seems like I invented warm water, but hey, you're using it, and you weren't before). I think I know quite a lot to be able to judge.

Zabad: about ppls motivations we could write zillions of kilometers, but it's not a psychology forum. Some ten years ago I wrote a couple essays on the topic for inclusion in some researches, but I don't feel I should share them here. Some googling on the topic will get you enough reading for a lifetime.

deadeye: pls don't be a vampire, the forum is for words to be shared.

A very short conclusion: the most important is to continously care about what others are doing, might call it situational awareness. (for Zabad: it doesn't mean vives should be always first, it means you should always know what's the proper approach in a situation) If this is gone, the fun in a _teamgame_ is over. Ppl should be selfish enough to reckognise that it's better fot them if it's better for others. It's just like any other society :D

J.


EDITS: my engrish needs repairs :D

[xdeadeye1]

[Zabad Profile]

Is that you deadeye? Hi to you too.

[Zabad Profile]

On ECGN 2-3 ppl playing smartly together are enough to win matches, just because the opponents are not prepared for such a case.

The reason for that is because most of the opponents are too busy packing or reviving (or raging in chat) to know what's happening on the battlefield.

the most important is to continously care about what others are doing, might call it situational awareness.

Surely you don't mean something like spying on other people's computers do you? JK. Situational awareness does indeed call for a balance between shooting the enemy and teamwork. But again the main reason many of the players are completely clueless as to what is happening during the battle raging around them is because the have no balance. They are excessively packing and revivng. It's a cute trick to call that teamwork and to think you are actually accomplishing something, but the results speak for themselves. Of course if you enjoy dieing and losing constantly that's your business.

[W0lfy Profile]

If you want to see how it should be done properly, just check how infensus worked, their qcon demos are available, _imo_ that inf was far the best team ever (simple proof for nonbelievers: check their results :d).

well they lost quakecon to doctors in 02. and their teamplay has nothing to do with a pub

[pinkname Profile]

Zabad: situational awareness means that you know what's happening around you. It might even include knowing other ppls cfgs, hardware, skills, whatever (I don't see how spying comes here). Eg. it's not the same if FRO takes the docs or Lucas, you have to do something completely different in either case. But I'm generally talking about what's happening on the server, on the map.

Balance of fragging and supporting is much more complicated than you visualise here. I don't think that the reason of unbalance was the main reason. Imo they just don't care. Sometimes they are in a mood to oversupport, sometimes the opposite. It changes from person to person, day from day.

An example: panzers are many times blamed being lame cus not causing enough damage or tking too much. A panzer can hit if it's supported well, mates pack the nmy up and flee away when it's time for THE shot notifying the puss. In an ideal case the pz can't even see the nmy until release, it has to be guided. The pz has no chance if it has to f2f, but mates usually don't care, just run away or fight for too long giving no chance for the puss to shoot cleanly. However things are getting better, with time I see more and more ppl on ECGN informing each others and the puss, sometimes (cca once in a month) it works out pretty well. (holdyourfire, holdyourfire, letsgo, BAAAANg!)

wolfy: why wouldn't have anything a nice "proish" teamplay do with a pub? Ofc. you can't discuss a strat on a pub for too long, but the same idea applies: take critical positions, time your attacks, cooperate. 10 yrs ago it wasn't rare on a pub, and resulted in a much higher quality pubbing than nowadays. You knew a lot of people, knew _how_ you can work with whom, and ppl not rarely found their places in the pubteam fast. These are rarely seen on ECGN, but sometimes happens among 2-3-4 players. And if it happens the nmy is fcked. On ECGN the only thing I can be sure of is that mastery is going to camp the mast :)

Maybe you weren't part of it. We also used to play many mixed team matches, and those quite resemble to a pub, and stuff works (if works) quite the same as on a proish match.

inf: losing a match on qcon is not a bad result imo. Losing a match doesn't dq them from being the best rtcw team ever imo. Have you even seen those matches, or any other inf stuff? Mkay, I could say xP or 3v3players was the best team ever but I won't cus I won't be able to prove it anyhow, in those early days we weren't international enough. :D

J.

[W0lfy Profile]

i didn't say it was a bad result, but i don't see how you can claim they were the best rtcw team when the doctors beat them in lan finals 3-1. iN also lost to affliction in that tournament on mp_sub. i guess it is arguable since doctors quit the game after that and infensus won quakecon 03. yes i have seen those matches and other inf stuff. there were no major lan tournaments for rtcw after those years. cxg could have been but the matches were never played.

[pinkname Profile]

Ofc. arguable! This is _my_ opinion, nothing more, nothing less. I think the style they used to play was the smartest I've seen, even if they weren't the most proish in fraggin. Losing on sub is no excuse imo, nor the dual pz qcon rule (there were many complaints about the latter). They lost (many) matches ofc.

We can objectivly measure how good a team is by their results purely since there's no other objective comparison possible. But since we're talking about how things could/should be done, I concentrated on the how.

Glad you saw those matches, and know what you're talking about. I hope others reading this forum get motivated to check some proper playing.

J.

[Zabad Profile]

Zabad: situational awareness means that you know what's happening around you. It might even include knowing other ppls cfgs, hardware, skills, whatever (I don't see how spying comes here). Eg. it's not the same if FRO takes the docs or Lucas, you have to do something completely different in either case. But I'm generally talking about what's happening on the server, on the map.

How do you find out other people's hardware and config? I'm talking about legitemate game awareness not hacks or spy tactics.

Balance of fragging and supporting is much more complicated than you visualise here. I don't think that the reason of unbalance was the main reason. Imo they just don't care. Sometimes they are in a mood to oversupport, sometimes the opposite. It changes from person to person, day from day.

I said the main reason for the severe lack of game awareness was excessive pack spamming and reviving. It's very simple.

An example: panzers are many times blamed being lame cus not causing enough damage or tking too much. A panzer can hit if it's supported well, mates pack the nmy up and flee away when it's time for THE shot notifying the puss. In an ideal case the pz can't even see the nmy until release, it has to be guided. The pz has no chance if it has to f2f, but mates usually don't care, just run away or fight for too long giving no chance for the puss to shoot cleanly. However things are getting better, with time I see more and more ppl on ECGN informing each others and the puss, sometimes (cca once in a month) it works out pretty well. (holdyourfire, holdyourfire, letsgo, BAAAANg!)

Your teammates pack the enemy and then run away? Anyway there's only one panzer per team so this doesnt really matter to our discussion. Panzer is also the easiest weapon in the game to use. You say an ideal panzer shot is one where you can't see the enemy? So wrong. It would be nice if the panzer had guided missiles though, but you'd still have to get a positive missile lock on the enemy. Not sure what you're trying to say with this paragraph. What is f2f? Teammates can't wait around for a slow and clumbsy oaf to recharge their panzer. I briefly played panzer not too long ago and got a couple of huge shots that I rarely see our panzers make. I did it by staying back and letting my m8s lead while I recharged, then after observing my teammates movements I new where to look for the highest concentration of enemies.

[pinkname Profile]

Sry to say Mr Zabad, but it seems you know nothing :> Watch and learn pls. :D Ppl talk about their hw and publish their cfg. Pz is the most delicate weapon in game (if used properly), you don't even know what f2f means. Pls. read a few nights and watch some demos before being so sure of your opinions.

J.

[Zabad Profile]

You're a silly guy. You're current KD is 0.7.