The end of RTCW Part VXII?
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Re: The end of RTCW Part VXII?
by 'L0, » Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:53 am
There's no new players arriving to scene because there's no master server and they basically don't see nothing and safely assume in most cases game is dead and move on. If you're in it for the money then you should stay away from idTech engine all together as GPL doesn't prevent making money but is unsuited as business model and even restricting it in some ways. Engine it self reportedly costs 250k and that means you get vanilla engine and can't use ioquake as it's GPL'ed and have to do everything all over thus on square one. Not to mention that you just get the engine and not the rights to title which is surely well beyond a million if they would even be willing to sell the rights.
Carmack him self stated that ID is not thinking about creating RTCW Live (not sure if he was referring to ET or actual RTCW) because players now days are simply not willing to invest time to gain a skill (and rtcw requires tons of it) and just prefer CoD alike games where you jump in game and just shot without any brain power let alone real skill beyond aim required.
The way things are at the moment, it seems that only way rtcw would ever go live is by modders but in that case, assets (textures, models, maps, SFX..) need to be recreated because they are still property licensed and can't be distributed freely without breaking a license and risking a lawsuit. Foundations for it to go live are already there, but until a modeller/animator comes by and replaces all the assets programmers can't do nothing. Workaround is to create a live version but require from clients to have packs and manually copy them to an appropriate location but that defeats whole concept of being it Live. So problem is simple, until someone addresses assets process is stalled - and while at it, mostly MP asset is actually required so much less models (no AI models etc..) than doing a full conversion.
FYI: I can't hit nothing on unlag as well but I barely play and can't hit nothing nowhere so can hardly blame any sort of anti-lag feature. Also botneck is not a problem for servers now days. Bloated mods ofc still can cause various lags but usually cause of lags and spikes is due trying to run a server on inadequate host (shared, low end/overused vps, low bandwidth etc). Botneck still exists on client side because graphics relays on cpu rather then gpu but that's typical for so old game and already addressed semi-successful with various projects (xReal, rend2 on ioQuake/Rtcw..).
Carmack him self stated that ID is not thinking about creating RTCW Live (not sure if he was referring to ET or actual RTCW) because players now days are simply not willing to invest time to gain a skill (and rtcw requires tons of it) and just prefer CoD alike games where you jump in game and just shot without any brain power let alone real skill beyond aim required.
The way things are at the moment, it seems that only way rtcw would ever go live is by modders but in that case, assets (textures, models, maps, SFX..) need to be recreated because they are still property licensed and can't be distributed freely without breaking a license and risking a lawsuit. Foundations for it to go live are already there, but until a modeller/animator comes by and replaces all the assets programmers can't do nothing. Workaround is to create a live version but require from clients to have packs and manually copy them to an appropriate location but that defeats whole concept of being it Live. So problem is simple, until someone addresses assets process is stalled - and while at it, mostly MP asset is actually required so much less models (no AI models etc..) than doing a full conversion.
FYI: I can't hit nothing on unlag as well but I barely play and can't hit nothing nowhere so can hardly blame any sort of anti-lag feature. Also botneck is not a problem for servers now days. Bloated mods ofc still can cause various lags but usually cause of lags and spikes is due trying to run a server on inadequate host (shared, low end/overused vps, low bandwidth etc). Botneck still exists on client side because graphics relays on cpu rather then gpu but that's typical for so old game and already addressed semi-successful with various projects (xReal, rend2 on ioQuake/Rtcw..).
Re: The end of RTCW Part VXII?
by pinkname » Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:39 am
Newbs: yes, the master srv thingie doesn't help either, but I didn't see (any?) newcomers many years before they stopped it. As I see newcomers went into the ET scene, maybe because the wouldn't have much success among the already experienced rtcw players.
rtcwlive by ID:
I dont follow gaming news too much, I didn't know they were thinking and communicating about. If they don't wish to deal with it, then we don't have much chance. This is their game, they invested in it and so on. I was thinkin about contacting them and offering to start building it up (the game is already 99% done, it's "just" the marketing, the hosting, the community what is needed), as we are the last pub community. I guess if they said no, they based their decisions on business calculations whatever they officially said. If they made their calculations, probably they were right, they have much more resources than we do at this area too.
rtcwlive by anyone else (correct me if I'm wrong pls.):
The engine is gpl-ed, so it can be used until the mods remain gpl-ed too. But everything else, the game concept, maps, models, textures, sounds whatever is not. Even if someone recreates them they will still have the rights of the concept itself, so anyone can build a business only by inventing a brand new game, and that wouldn't be rtcw.
rtcwlive in cooperation with ID (just thinking (dreaming?) aloud):
I could imagine ID to cooperate if they don't have to bear risks. If they don't have to risk their name, their investments and any further money, we might come up with a business model building up a new scene. We don't need the right of their game ("live" could mean only reselling it), building a site and server infrastructure, promoting it (etc etc) could be done by anyone I guess having enough resources. If we can think ebout and come up with a sane solution, we might contact ID with it.
By making money I didn't mean selling the game developments, but selling services around the game. GPL doesn't forbid that.
I'll keep thinking, pls share your thoughts, even if you have to say I'm a fanatic idiot :)
J.
rtcwlive by ID:
I dont follow gaming news too much, I didn't know they were thinking and communicating about. If they don't wish to deal with it, then we don't have much chance. This is their game, they invested in it and so on. I was thinkin about contacting them and offering to start building it up (the game is already 99% done, it's "just" the marketing, the hosting, the community what is needed), as we are the last pub community. I guess if they said no, they based their decisions on business calculations whatever they officially said. If they made their calculations, probably they were right, they have much more resources than we do at this area too.
rtcwlive by anyone else (correct me if I'm wrong pls.):
The engine is gpl-ed, so it can be used until the mods remain gpl-ed too. But everything else, the game concept, maps, models, textures, sounds whatever is not. Even if someone recreates them they will still have the rights of the concept itself, so anyone can build a business only by inventing a brand new game, and that wouldn't be rtcw.
rtcwlive in cooperation with ID (just thinking (dreaming?) aloud):
I could imagine ID to cooperate if they don't have to bear risks. If they don't have to risk their name, their investments and any further money, we might come up with a business model building up a new scene. We don't need the right of their game ("live" could mean only reselling it), building a site and server infrastructure, promoting it (etc etc) could be done by anyone I guess having enough resources. If we can think ebout and come up with a sane solution, we might contact ID with it.
By making money I didn't mean selling the game developments, but selling services around the game. GPL doesn't forbid that.
I'll keep thinking, pls share your thoughts, even if you have to say I'm a fanatic idiot :)
J.
Re: The end of RTCW Part VXII?
by 'L0, » Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:19 am
You can freely fork to live without any legal issues as long as you comply with GPL and TOS (no property asset etc).
In a nutshell - there's nothing preventing of a standalone fork that's in essence a mod and has no commercial weight and is solely a project that's marked as "enthusiastic attempt" which naturally complies with TOS/License and clearly states what is all about. If that wouldn't be the case, then games like open arena or warsow would never exist, since they're basically standalone clones of quake3 just with their own asset and some extra features. Basically all sums up how you present the idea and the project. Presenting game the wrong way can and does usually lead to all sorts of legal issues, but if you comply with license you're on the safe side. Overall, GPL terms and conditions are a heated debate in coding world (all branches) as a lot of us, aren't lawyers and don't fully grasp all the ins and outs and simply use already established projects for reference as well as draw from our own experience.
P.S. There was no new blood on 1.4 but it was on 1.0. A couple of years ago we had heated debate about future of rtcw where I advocated why 1.4 fails and that was because new comers could not obtain serial key which wasn't a problem on 1.0. We also tried to solve this by introducing a patched 1.4 binary that would allow any cd key to play (with PB enabled), but 1.4 community was not interested so all, any new blood that came pore to 1.0. But it's really beyond the scope of this discussion as it's a discussion of it's own.
In a nutshell - there's nothing preventing of a standalone fork that's in essence a mod and has no commercial weight and is solely a project that's marked as "enthusiastic attempt" which naturally complies with TOS/License and clearly states what is all about. If that wouldn't be the case, then games like open arena or warsow would never exist, since they're basically standalone clones of quake3 just with their own asset and some extra features. Basically all sums up how you present the idea and the project. Presenting game the wrong way can and does usually lead to all sorts of legal issues, but if you comply with license you're on the safe side. Overall, GPL terms and conditions are a heated debate in coding world (all branches) as a lot of us, aren't lawyers and don't fully grasp all the ins and outs and simply use already established projects for reference as well as draw from our own experience.
P.S. There was no new blood on 1.4 but it was on 1.0. A couple of years ago we had heated debate about future of rtcw where I advocated why 1.4 fails and that was because new comers could not obtain serial key which wasn't a problem on 1.0. We also tried to solve this by introducing a patched 1.4 binary that would allow any cd key to play (with PB enabled), but 1.4 community was not interested so all, any new blood that came pore to 1.0. But it's really beyond the scope of this discussion as it's a discussion of it's own.
Re: The end of RTCW Part VXII?
by pinkname » Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:44 am
Money:
If we want to deal with masses (yes, we want!!), we can't ignore the money. Money is needed for the infrastructure, the developments, the everyday work related to the "service". We can't call it enthusiasm (even if it is), and it should have a commercial weight unless there's a millionaire who's stupid enough to spend his money for a project like this. (someone said mastery is rich: are you _that_ rich, mr mastery? ;-)) (btw does anyone know why ET is "free"?)
I do not wish to be involved in any shady thing, ID deserves all the respect for their job well done, I do not wish to fight them, I'm seeking cooperation, even if we are the small fish in this case.
I don't expect the current scene to evolve much further, nor I expect current players to multiplicate. We can't base the project on current players (100 ppl is just nothing as a playerbase). We need "new blood" yes. Quakelive is a great example of how it can be done, _maybe_ (!!!) it could work in the case of rtcw too. I think we already have the resources to create very proper documentation, tutorials for the newcomers, I guess we also have the brains and expertise to create the infrastructure for such a project, maybe we could have founding too, what we don't have are business resources (from marketing to lawyers), self assurance and of course the rights.
Probably it's a waste of time thinking about, but if I can afford to play a couple hours per day, I might afford to think about it also. If enough of you (you, who actually do something) support the concept, I can invest time into collecting the aspects and start managing the project. If it has 10% chance then I'm into it. If it has less than 1% then not. We have to have a clean plan already to start any discussions with ID, that's sure.
I'll start searching for rtcw and quakelive related statments by ID, you could help me by providing me some links if you know anything.
More aloud thinking to come....
__________________________
[off]
versions and keys:
When I was "young", quite all pubservers in Europe had the keycheck server resolved to localhost on rtcw servers: anyone without a key (and an actual purchase) could connect, but pb worked. As I remember key is validated by the gameserver if it can't reach IDs servers. Ppl had to buy the game only when they were serious enough to join competitions on "legal" servers. I think many ppl. stopped playing (at least in Europe) when there were no more keyless servers running. (In my country we had to pay a quarter month salary for the game those times.)
I liked 1.33 the most, 1.4 brought some "muddiness" (maybe just needed more hw, I can't test it anymore), but addressed many issues (most importantly ffe blasts within closed areas). I didn't yet try the "new" 1.0 servers, maybe it's time to do so? :D
[/off]
J.
If we want to deal with masses (yes, we want!!), we can't ignore the money. Money is needed for the infrastructure, the developments, the everyday work related to the "service". We can't call it enthusiasm (even if it is), and it should have a commercial weight unless there's a millionaire who's stupid enough to spend his money for a project like this. (someone said mastery is rich: are you _that_ rich, mr mastery? ;-)) (btw does anyone know why ET is "free"?)
I do not wish to be involved in any shady thing, ID deserves all the respect for their job well done, I do not wish to fight them, I'm seeking cooperation, even if we are the small fish in this case.
I don't expect the current scene to evolve much further, nor I expect current players to multiplicate. We can't base the project on current players (100 ppl is just nothing as a playerbase). We need "new blood" yes. Quakelive is a great example of how it can be done, _maybe_ (!!!) it could work in the case of rtcw too. I think we already have the resources to create very proper documentation, tutorials for the newcomers, I guess we also have the brains and expertise to create the infrastructure for such a project, maybe we could have founding too, what we don't have are business resources (from marketing to lawyers), self assurance and of course the rights.
Probably it's a waste of time thinking about, but if I can afford to play a couple hours per day, I might afford to think about it also. If enough of you (you, who actually do something) support the concept, I can invest time into collecting the aspects and start managing the project. If it has 10% chance then I'm into it. If it has less than 1% then not. We have to have a clean plan already to start any discussions with ID, that's sure.
I'll start searching for rtcw and quakelive related statments by ID, you could help me by providing me some links if you know anything.
More aloud thinking to come....
__________________________
[off]
versions and keys:
When I was "young", quite all pubservers in Europe had the keycheck server resolved to localhost on rtcw servers: anyone without a key (and an actual purchase) could connect, but pb worked. As I remember key is validated by the gameserver if it can't reach IDs servers. Ppl had to buy the game only when they were serious enough to join competitions on "legal" servers. I think many ppl. stopped playing (at least in Europe) when there were no more keyless servers running. (In my country we had to pay a quarter month salary for the game those times.)
I liked 1.33 the most, 1.4 brought some "muddiness" (maybe just needed more hw, I can't test it anymore), but addressed many issues (most importantly ffe blasts within closed areas). I didn't yet try the "new" 1.0 servers, maybe it's time to do so? :D
[/off]
J.
Re: The end of RTCW Part VXII?
by murkey » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:25 am
Couldn't agree with nate more, rtcw x was awesome when we played but sadly everyone ran back to 1.0, i would still be playing it if others still played :'(
Re: The end of RTCW Part VXII?
by 'L0, » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:32 am
You don't need enterprise grade infrastructure to bring rtcw live to life. All you need is a domain, a host with decent bandwidth and a script (cms, self made..) - that's it. Only strain on a server hosting is transfer (install) of the game for new clients, so for optimal performance it would be recommended to get another server that only handles transfers so web server only deals with usual stuff. For that you can get a simple vps server with 512 or even 256 ram and only set FTP daemon.. as long as bandwidth can handle it.
EDIT: Stay away from 1.0 servers..any legit server is empty and only servers with crappy hitboxes have any traffic. Now days primary events are - competing who's a better (unhit) tweaker and fair game moralizing from players that are them self caught cheaters most of the times. And I'm from 1.0 community so it's not 1.4 "look down" biased. ;)
EDIT: Stay away from 1.0 servers..any legit server is empty and only servers with crappy hitboxes have any traffic. Now days primary events are - competing who's a better (unhit) tweaker and fair game moralizing from players that are them self caught cheaters most of the times. And I'm from 1.0 community so it's not 1.4 "look down" biased. ;)
Re: The end of RTCW Part VXII?
by pinkname » Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:35 pm
'L0, wrote:You don't need enterprise grade infrastructure to bring rtcw live to life.
Depends on how many ppl you want to serve. If talking about a quakelike thing, then as a startup you have to be able to serve at least a couple dozens at the same time in the beginning (and be able to grow gradually), both in the US and EU. Not only the www, but the gaming ports too. It's a couple hundred $$$/month at least if rented, hopefully thousands (because of the need). The whole thing is useless if there are less than a few hundred ppl start using it in the first months. You have to pay for the ppl working on the service, for marketing, licenses (it will only work if ID can harvest money), administration, taxes, whatever. For a first glance (!) it looks like a couple ten thousand bucks are a very bare minimum to start up anything. This money has to come back to not sink fast. Ads, resales could make up the incomes. If calculations show it is profitable, funding is not a real problem. The real (business) problems are rights, risks and profitability. Profitability can be calculated only if risks (what if noone is interested? :o) can be calculated and managed, anything else is "just" technical.
There are marketing tools already invented to build up the hype, but I'm not very pro at it, I can only have wild, uneducated guesses.
I'm very far from being sure enough ppl will start playing, and I have no clue how a businessman can calculate it. I guess they made the calculations at ID and hence their decision :(
Still thinking...
[off]
1.0: mkay, thanks for the warning, I won't waste time on it :)
[/off]
J.
Re: The end of RTCW Part VXII?
by pinkname » Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:54 pm
+1:
Include betting, and share (betting) incomes with winning teams. The possibility to earn money can lure many ppl in. Ofc. matches could be broadcasted with speakers etc etc. Hmmhmmm. :>
J.
Include betting, and share (betting) incomes with winning teams. The possibility to earn money can lure many ppl in. Ofc. matches could be broadcasted with speakers etc etc. Hmmhmmm. :>
J.
Re: The end of RTCW Part VXII?
by 'L0, » Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:36 pm
Look you can let your imagination ran wild but fact remains - there's no money to be made in current shape so if you're in it for it, it's the wrong league.
Also you're completely misunderstanding how things work. QL only offers server from reseller so no one without hacking it, can't host a legit server. That's something you can't do with et, rtcw or even quake port. You can't resell it, GPL does not allow it in this manner at all.
Rtcw Live would in essence only be an interface- client comes to a site, thru browser downloads latest version of the game, browses the list but then connects to actual dedicated server. Any and all connections when in game goes thru client-server and has nothing to do with website/host, unless if host thru wrapper tracks anything (real time stats etc) and even in that manner, usage is insignificant. Only real interaction (when it comes to a game) that client has, is downloading it from browser (website), rest is just forum and/or any other hooks that would be implemented, that's it.
Bottom line is- there's no scaling required for ET/RTCW Live because you can't even monetize on it as QL does, only thing you can do is fork it so you get rid of all the restrictions (cd key) but for that you need your own asset (models, textures, SFX...) and of course if you succeed at it, have to solve the cheat issue as PB does not support stand alone modes. That's it, nothing else and no other theory and concepts involved.
Also you're completely misunderstanding how things work. QL only offers server from reseller so no one without hacking it, can't host a legit server. That's something you can't do with et, rtcw or even quake port. You can't resell it, GPL does not allow it in this manner at all.
Rtcw Live would in essence only be an interface- client comes to a site, thru browser downloads latest version of the game, browses the list but then connects to actual dedicated server. Any and all connections when in game goes thru client-server and has nothing to do with website/host, unless if host thru wrapper tracks anything (real time stats etc) and even in that manner, usage is insignificant. Only real interaction (when it comes to a game) that client has, is downloading it from browser (website), rest is just forum and/or any other hooks that would be implemented, that's it.
Bottom line is- there's no scaling required for ET/RTCW Live because you can't even monetize on it as QL does, only thing you can do is fork it so you get rid of all the restrictions (cd key) but for that you need your own asset (models, textures, SFX...) and of course if you succeed at it, have to solve the cheat issue as PB does not support stand alone modes. That's it, nothing else and no other theory and concepts involved.
Re: The end of RTCW Part VXII?
by pinkname » Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:11 pm
Mkay, I guess we misunderstand each other. Check below stuff:
- can you run a legit rtcw server? YES
- can you ask for money (in this case indirectly) for operating rtcw servers and some service around them? YES
- can you sell copies of rtcw? MAYBE/YES (if shops or steam can, you can too/or ask ID for permission to do so)
- do you necesseraly have to get rid of cdkeys? NO
- do you necesseraly have to mod rtcw for this purpose? NO
- can you operate a www site, from where you can forward ppl to rtcw servers operated by you? YES
- can you protect your rtcw servers from clients not coming from your www site? YES
- can you monitor your rtcw servers and feed data back to your website? YES
- can you monitor your webservers (mkay, the db backend) and feed data back to the rtcw servers? YES
- can you automaticly arrange matches? YES
- can you host advertisments on the www site? YES
- can you provide betting on your site? YES (maybe you need a provider for it because of the legal issues around online gambling)
Does the above differ from quakelive? NOT REALLY
Is there anything else needed? NOTHING (at least nothing that comes to my mind atm)
Maybe I don't see something you do see, but if the above stuff is enough, then the thing conceptually works. If it is bringing enough money to feed itself, well, that's another question. Why should any data go from the rtcw client to the website? Why should any data from the website go to the rtcw client? What I'm thinking about is just a "wrapper" around the game and its servers. Isn't quakelive the same?
J.
- can you run a legit rtcw server? YES
- can you ask for money (in this case indirectly) for operating rtcw servers and some service around them? YES
- can you sell copies of rtcw? MAYBE/YES (if shops or steam can, you can too/or ask ID for permission to do so)
- do you necesseraly have to get rid of cdkeys? NO
- do you necesseraly have to mod rtcw for this purpose? NO
- can you operate a www site, from where you can forward ppl to rtcw servers operated by you? YES
- can you protect your rtcw servers from clients not coming from your www site? YES
- can you monitor your rtcw servers and feed data back to your website? YES
- can you monitor your webservers (mkay, the db backend) and feed data back to the rtcw servers? YES
- can you automaticly arrange matches? YES
- can you host advertisments on the www site? YES
- can you provide betting on your site? YES (maybe you need a provider for it because of the legal issues around online gambling)
Does the above differ from quakelive? NOT REALLY
Is there anything else needed? NOTHING (at least nothing that comes to my mind atm)
Maybe I don't see something you do see, but if the above stuff is enough, then the thing conceptually works. If it is bringing enough money to feed itself, well, that's another question. Why should any data go from the rtcw client to the website? Why should any data from the website go to the rtcw client? What I'm thinking about is just a "wrapper" around the game and its servers. Isn't quakelive the same?
J.
Re: The end of RTCW Part VXII?
by xdeadeye1 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:40 pm
pinkname wrote:- do you necesseraly have to get rid of cdkeys? NO
.
for some reason we get lots of new Keys all the time..
- WinterWarlock
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:29 am
Re: The end of RTCW Part VXII?
by WinterWarlock » Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:26 pm
pinkname wrote:Fact: osp pubs are empty, ecgn is not.
I have no clue why it is so, why shrub is more fun than osp. To me osp is just more precise, eg yesterday some of us tried a high ping (for me) osp server and everything was much smoother, grenades killed the nmy, headshots were headshots and so on. Mkay, couldn't drop and exchange weapons. I rly don't know why shrub is more popular nowadays. Also I don't see why ppl love playing the same map all the time (I admit: beach is a super map) instead playing the most popular 10-15 maps. 7-8-10 yrs ago we rarely played the same map for more than 2-3 rounds. Could anyone enlighten me?
BUT: it's about rtcw, and even shrub is much better than anything I've ever tried :)
J.
Obviously, the #1 reason to play RTCW is to poison. Shrub does that nicely. OSP, not at all.
Re: The end of RTCW Part VXII?
by pinkname » Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:49 pm
WinterWarlock wrote:
Obviously, the #1 reason to play RTCW is to poison. Shrub does that nicely. OSP, not at all.
Arrgh, you're right. You just made me to forget work and connect for some poisoning :DdddD
J.
Re: The end of RTCW Part VXII?
by 'L0, » Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:02 pm
Just few corrections & some clarification;
- can you ask for money (in this case indirectly) for operating rtcw servers and some service around them? YES
You can only ask for money because you're providing a service that's from different realm (hosting).
- can you sell copies of rtcw? MAYBE/YES (if shops or steam can, you can too/or ask ID for permission to do so)
No you can't. You can't sell let alone distribute any of the property asset unless if you go to standalone and have your own asset but in that case, you enter Copy laws realm which means that if it's a clone of the game you'll get suited because you don't hold the title license and that's fiercely protected in gaming industry. Not to mention Valve or any other publisher wouldn't probably even risk it and just refuse to publish your game on their platform from start (ID has a contract with Valve thus publishes thru their platform).
- do you necesseraly have to get rid of cdkeys? NO
TOS disallows removing of a cd key check in mods, only way to remove it without breaking it, is to go to standalone.
- can you host advertisments on the www site? YES
No you can't. If site is meant directly and solely to serve a game and earn with ads then you're indirectly running a commercial business and as such, need commercial license. Work around this is, that you run game on sub-domain with no ads while use ads on forum which is placed on different sub-domain or etc main domain and even then, you could still get sued if they decide to come after you (generally they don't but one never knows).
- can you provide betting on your site? YES (maybe you need a provider for it because of the legal issues around online gambling)
You can't run or offer any gambling business (I worked in that industry) in eu or usa without a license to run it.
Does the above differ from quakelive? NOT REALLY
QL's idea is to earn money by serving ads while in game and act as reseller where only way to obtain a server is thru them (unless if anything changed?), neither of it is something you can do as GPL prevents you from being sole provider and non-commercial license doesn't allow any direct or indirect earnings - how far indirect goes can be elaborated in various ways and is usually resolved in a court of law if it comes that far.
Maybe I don't see something you do see, but if the above stuff is enough, then the thing conceptually works. If it is bringing enough money to feed itself, well, that's another question. Why should any data go from the rtcw client to the website? Why should any data from the website go to the rtcw client? What I'm thinking about is just a "wrapper" around the game and its servers. Isn't quakelive the same?
Yep pretty much, with a difference it's suited for business model which any fork without a proper license cannot be.
To sum it up - Only way to earn any money is by providing game hosting but there are dime and dozens (even I have it) of game hosters out there and because it's GPL'ed you can't limit or deny anyone to run a hosting service or just server on their own. You cannot earn from ads unless if ads don't actually enter game realm but that's where GPL debate becomes heated as there's different interpretations of what you can or cannot do and how far (indirect) apart it has to be, to avoid legal issues and be on the safe side.
To add one more thing - it's even unclear at the moment if you can hold back any browser related coding as well as so far it was assumed you can't which means any random guy can ask for your code and offer his version of RTCW Live and you can't do nothing about it- It's quite debated in various channels regarding ET Live but is missing a lawyer's interpretation as of where you can draw the line and deny giving out the source of that particular piece of code.
- can you ask for money (in this case indirectly) for operating rtcw servers and some service around them? YES
You can only ask for money because you're providing a service that's from different realm (hosting).
- can you sell copies of rtcw? MAYBE/YES (if shops or steam can, you can too/or ask ID for permission to do so)
No you can't. You can't sell let alone distribute any of the property asset unless if you go to standalone and have your own asset but in that case, you enter Copy laws realm which means that if it's a clone of the game you'll get suited because you don't hold the title license and that's fiercely protected in gaming industry. Not to mention Valve or any other publisher wouldn't probably even risk it and just refuse to publish your game on their platform from start (ID has a contract with Valve thus publishes thru their platform).
- do you necesseraly have to get rid of cdkeys? NO
TOS disallows removing of a cd key check in mods, only way to remove it without breaking it, is to go to standalone.
- can you host advertisments on the www site? YES
No you can't. If site is meant directly and solely to serve a game and earn with ads then you're indirectly running a commercial business and as such, need commercial license. Work around this is, that you run game on sub-domain with no ads while use ads on forum which is placed on different sub-domain or etc main domain and even then, you could still get sued if they decide to come after you (generally they don't but one never knows).
- can you provide betting on your site? YES (maybe you need a provider for it because of the legal issues around online gambling)
You can't run or offer any gambling business (I worked in that industry) in eu or usa without a license to run it.
Does the above differ from quakelive? NOT REALLY
QL's idea is to earn money by serving ads while in game and act as reseller where only way to obtain a server is thru them (unless if anything changed?), neither of it is something you can do as GPL prevents you from being sole provider and non-commercial license doesn't allow any direct or indirect earnings - how far indirect goes can be elaborated in various ways and is usually resolved in a court of law if it comes that far.
Maybe I don't see something you do see, but if the above stuff is enough, then the thing conceptually works. If it is bringing enough money to feed itself, well, that's another question. Why should any data go from the rtcw client to the website? Why should any data from the website go to the rtcw client? What I'm thinking about is just a "wrapper" around the game and its servers. Isn't quakelive the same?
Yep pretty much, with a difference it's suited for business model which any fork without a proper license cannot be.
To sum it up - Only way to earn any money is by providing game hosting but there are dime and dozens (even I have it) of game hosters out there and because it's GPL'ed you can't limit or deny anyone to run a hosting service or just server on their own. You cannot earn from ads unless if ads don't actually enter game realm but that's where GPL debate becomes heated as there's different interpretations of what you can or cannot do and how far (indirect) apart it has to be, to avoid legal issues and be on the safe side.
To add one more thing - it's even unclear at the moment if you can hold back any browser related coding as well as so far it was assumed you can't which means any random guy can ask for your code and offer his version of RTCW Live and you can't do nothing about it- It's quite debated in various channels regarding ET Live but is missing a lawyer's interpretation as of where you can draw the line and deny giving out the source of that particular piece of code.
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