What happens when you die?
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- Keekanoo
by Keekanoo » Fri Jul 04, 2003 4:07 pm
Sannop, by your own logic, calling me arrogant for believing many humans are too arrogant is itself arrogant.
Which is not a point I wish to make. I merely wish to demonstrate that the 'belief' system has successfully risen above applied application of the mind for many millenia precisely on the point that it is 'above' reason. Therefore it has carte-blanche to do as it pleases.
As it should.
For is not one of the great tennets (in theory) of your country and mine, that the individual have the right to believe what they wish? Unless it's communism, of course. Or a host of other 'beliefs' that aren't considered appropriate to the status-quo, or serve to fuel the 'constant crises' theory of social motivation.
I digress.
Regarding most religions they are clearly not founded on 'belief' systems. They are founded on the indoctrination of an individual (who seeks Nirvana in one form or another) to a massive set of codes, ethics, moralities, etc that suit the religion.
But this is all muddy waters and I really don't want to waste our time sifting through arguments that have been going on for millenia.
Allow me a different path:
Humans, by sheer volume of brain-power, have crafted a 'reality' which is intensely divorced from natures reality. We started on this path, originally, long ago, out of need to survive.
We did not, and do not, have the reflexes and inherant survival mechanisms of most other creatures. We're slow. We have poor vision. We can't hear or taste or smell well. We lack claws and fangs. We lack an exoskeleton, or even leathery hard skin.
In short, humans are very frail organism indeed. But we have one thing which surpasses all other creatures (excepting the whales and dolphins and such who have, by the by--whales at any rate, and dolphins equal to ours--brains much larger). That is the ability to hand down information in great quantatities. We teach our young for a long time. What started with crude show and tell episodes have been refined to highly evolved disseminations of knowledge via complex language systems.
All this is very obvious, and I appologize for borring you all as I establish my point.
Understanding Media by Marshall McLuhan, though not by far the first work on the topic I'm about to broach, is certainly one of the more important contemporary works on the theme.
The theme is: Media becomes the message.
What that means is that somewhere along the line, back when we used simple grunts to 'explain' things to others, we adopted a system of 'grunting' to 'mean' certain 'things'.
I say I hold a cup. You all now know that this creature called 'Keekanoo' now holds a cup. But what or who is a Keekanoo? What kind of cup? You recieved bits of information that tell you basic facts. Are the facts the reality?
No. They are, at an absurd best, ghosts of a 'potential' reality.
More and more for the past 20 or so thousand years we've been refining this 'fact-based' language to the point that now we all sit in seperate rooms around the world learning 'facts' about each other. There is no question that it's an incredibly good system for transferring information. I don't dispute that. But the information is facts. It is a simple point yet one which most of us fail to apply to our truth in life.
So where am I going with all this.
I stand by my statement, Sannop, that most humans are extremely arrogant to think that they 'know' reality. That they 'believe' they know.
Naturally, it is ourtrageously arrogant of me to assume I 'know' what's going on in other people's minds. And just as naturally I don't 'know' what's going on in their minds, I can only piece together 'facts' about them by watching their actions in life. I do also detect their spiritual presence, but that's another matter entirely and one not relevant to the current theme.
So, my point: Humans, due to a very very long history of social training (ie languages, social customs, how to stand, to act, to behave, to wear, etc etc etc,) have become annexed from real life.
We have to spend so much of our time and mental abilities on learning how to be a 'human' in a social sense that we have little or no time left over for actually 'being' human. Or 'being' alive. A point which almost every single self-help program and religion out there capatalize on.
I was fortunate one day while journeying along a large river that flows through Ontario to come across an elderly black lady sitting on a old wood warf. We spent perhaps an hour together talking about life and such, and I was amazed at how 'present' she was. She would chuckle and bend her head over and say "'Do you hear that? Them crickets. Good summer for them. But they aren't at all happy 'bout the storm comin. Oh look--there's that seagull. He's always angry. Listen to him. It's no wonder the other birds shy 'way from this spot. Got a mean streak in him from birth I 'spect. Lord knows why." She listened to life. Everything had something to say. Everything around her lived. She didn't 'listen' with her ears. She listened with her spirit, her emotions, her mind.
Some friends of mine came by and I went to join them. "What you talken' to that old retard for?" One of them asked. "Who the black lady?" I responded. "Yeah. She's stupid. I heard she lives with 6 cats and can't drive. And she's ugly too."
I think it was around then, when I was about 11, that I decided to understand this phenomena of social sickness we perpetuate, unwittingly, on each other.
We walk around full of empircal knowledge, thinking we are so far above it all. And we feel lost. Broken. Like there are massive holes in our lives. Relgion catches some, drugs, booze, others. Greed, hatred, anger, still more.
Frankly, Sannop, I support religions as they are a quick and easy fix for most. A fast way 'in' if you will. And just as frankly I think they only offer shards of the truth, many, in fact, using those trinkets of fellowship, love and such as a way to 'buy' people's devotion. Give me a religion that has no bible, no koran, no words, no rituals, no customs, and I shall join.
Keekanoo.
Which is not a point I wish to make. I merely wish to demonstrate that the 'belief' system has successfully risen above applied application of the mind for many millenia precisely on the point that it is 'above' reason. Therefore it has carte-blanche to do as it pleases.
As it should.
For is not one of the great tennets (in theory) of your country and mine, that the individual have the right to believe what they wish? Unless it's communism, of course. Or a host of other 'beliefs' that aren't considered appropriate to the status-quo, or serve to fuel the 'constant crises' theory of social motivation.
I digress.
Regarding most religions they are clearly not founded on 'belief' systems. They are founded on the indoctrination of an individual (who seeks Nirvana in one form or another) to a massive set of codes, ethics, moralities, etc that suit the religion.
But this is all muddy waters and I really don't want to waste our time sifting through arguments that have been going on for millenia.
Allow me a different path:
Humans, by sheer volume of brain-power, have crafted a 'reality' which is intensely divorced from natures reality. We started on this path, originally, long ago, out of need to survive.
We did not, and do not, have the reflexes and inherant survival mechanisms of most other creatures. We're slow. We have poor vision. We can't hear or taste or smell well. We lack claws and fangs. We lack an exoskeleton, or even leathery hard skin.
In short, humans are very frail organism indeed. But we have one thing which surpasses all other creatures (excepting the whales and dolphins and such who have, by the by--whales at any rate, and dolphins equal to ours--brains much larger). That is the ability to hand down information in great quantatities. We teach our young for a long time. What started with crude show and tell episodes have been refined to highly evolved disseminations of knowledge via complex language systems.
All this is very obvious, and I appologize for borring you all as I establish my point.
Understanding Media by Marshall McLuhan, though not by far the first work on the topic I'm about to broach, is certainly one of the more important contemporary works on the theme.
The theme is: Media becomes the message.
What that means is that somewhere along the line, back when we used simple grunts to 'explain' things to others, we adopted a system of 'grunting' to 'mean' certain 'things'.
I say I hold a cup. You all now know that this creature called 'Keekanoo' now holds a cup. But what or who is a Keekanoo? What kind of cup? You recieved bits of information that tell you basic facts. Are the facts the reality?
No. They are, at an absurd best, ghosts of a 'potential' reality.
More and more for the past 20 or so thousand years we've been refining this 'fact-based' language to the point that now we all sit in seperate rooms around the world learning 'facts' about each other. There is no question that it's an incredibly good system for transferring information. I don't dispute that. But the information is facts. It is a simple point yet one which most of us fail to apply to our truth in life.
So where am I going with all this.
I stand by my statement, Sannop, that most humans are extremely arrogant to think that they 'know' reality. That they 'believe' they know.
Naturally, it is ourtrageously arrogant of me to assume I 'know' what's going on in other people's minds. And just as naturally I don't 'know' what's going on in their minds, I can only piece together 'facts' about them by watching their actions in life. I do also detect their spiritual presence, but that's another matter entirely and one not relevant to the current theme.
So, my point: Humans, due to a very very long history of social training (ie languages, social customs, how to stand, to act, to behave, to wear, etc etc etc,) have become annexed from real life.
We have to spend so much of our time and mental abilities on learning how to be a 'human' in a social sense that we have little or no time left over for actually 'being' human. Or 'being' alive. A point which almost every single self-help program and religion out there capatalize on.
I was fortunate one day while journeying along a large river that flows through Ontario to come across an elderly black lady sitting on a old wood warf. We spent perhaps an hour together talking about life and such, and I was amazed at how 'present' she was. She would chuckle and bend her head over and say "'Do you hear that? Them crickets. Good summer for them. But they aren't at all happy 'bout the storm comin. Oh look--there's that seagull. He's always angry. Listen to him. It's no wonder the other birds shy 'way from this spot. Got a mean streak in him from birth I 'spect. Lord knows why." She listened to life. Everything had something to say. Everything around her lived. She didn't 'listen' with her ears. She listened with her spirit, her emotions, her mind.
Some friends of mine came by and I went to join them. "What you talken' to that old retard for?" One of them asked. "Who the black lady?" I responded. "Yeah. She's stupid. I heard she lives with 6 cats and can't drive. And she's ugly too."
I think it was around then, when I was about 11, that I decided to understand this phenomena of social sickness we perpetuate, unwittingly, on each other.
We walk around full of empircal knowledge, thinking we are so far above it all. And we feel lost. Broken. Like there are massive holes in our lives. Relgion catches some, drugs, booze, others. Greed, hatred, anger, still more.
Frankly, Sannop, I support religions as they are a quick and easy fix for most. A fast way 'in' if you will. And just as frankly I think they only offer shards of the truth, many, in fact, using those trinkets of fellowship, love and such as a way to 'buy' people's devotion. Give me a religion that has no bible, no koran, no words, no rituals, no customs, and I shall join.
Keekanoo.
- Sannop
by Sannop » Fri Jul 04, 2003 5:25 pm
Originally posted by Keekanoo
Sannop, by your own logic, calling me arrogant for believing many humans are too arrogant is itself arrogant.
Touche' (spelling?)
Seriously, I agree that in my constant stance against those that sit in judgement of people I am, in essence, judging. But I try not to judge their beliefs or opinions.
I agree with almost everything that you have said except for one thing. I felt as if your statement about the mind was stated as fact. When it is an opinion that can be wrong, just like any of mine. I don't know what I feel on that specific matter, I am still trying to understand the basics. (However, I am learning I need to stop trying, that that is getting in my way.)
From the rest of your post I believe that you and I would agree on the lack of "spiritualism" involved with "religion". The point of any message (bible, koran, koan, etc.) is lost, in my opinion, on many. I was lost for years. I understand that I do not yet know the message, but I am much more enjoying the pursuit now that I know how lost I am. I have been to many Christian masses, including Orthodox, and witnessed Shinto and Buddhist festivities. I now see the message from each is the same. Organized religion is not to blame, there is beauty in each of them.
by Jeffro » Fri Jul 04, 2003 6:17 pm
I was a Christian...but I don't know what to believe anymore!
There is so much stuff out there that could change your thinking!
There is so much stuff out there that could change your thinking!
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by Evan » Fri Jul 04, 2003 6:28 pm
I'm a Christian, but it's odd. After being raised by my family to grow up Catholic, I find myself starting not to believe a lot of the things God has 'said' in the Bible.
Lately, I've started to believe what I want to believe about God, about the world, about the uninverse. Not what the Bible tells me. I know a lot of people who would say 'But you're wrong. You need to be fully involved in an organized religion to understand and be a true beliiever of God, or Allah, or whoever.'
Is that so wrong? Do you really think it's wrong to believe what you believe because you believe it? Or do you have to be 'true believer' in a religion to be able to really believe?
Opinions? Thoughts?
Lately, I've started to believe what I want to believe about God, about the world, about the uninverse. Not what the Bible tells me. I know a lot of people who would say 'But you're wrong. You need to be fully involved in an organized religion to understand and be a true beliiever of God, or Allah, or whoever.'
Is that so wrong? Do you really think it's wrong to believe what you believe because you believe it? Or do you have to be 'true believer' in a religion to be able to really believe?
Opinions? Thoughts?
.- Sannop
by Sannop » Fri Jul 04, 2003 6:46 pm
Evan I was raised Catholic also. I had lost all faith in the church. However a book and trip changd my life and views on organized religion in a positive way.
I ran the Tokyo Marathon two years in a row. The first year my wife and I were sent there as representatives of Orlando for a "sister-city" exchange.
I read a lot on the history of Japan and on Tokyo. I found out that there is a great tourist attraction named Kamakura within an hours train tide of Tokyo. I investigated Kamakura and found out that it was the first buddhist temple in Japan. It also became the seat for the first shogunate in the late 1100's.
It is a zen temple. So I picked up "The Three Pillars of Zen" by Kapleau. What an amazing book. It is about spiritualism and philosophy, not religion. The calming aspect of Zen has done wonders in my life, even making me enjoy Catholic mass for the first time. The Japanese can be Buddhist and Christian together. Zen is not about god-worshipping, it is about enjoying the gift of life. Answers or not the quest... but true happiness is.
Most people don't understand the Koan "What is the sound of one hand clapping". In my limited Zen exploration I have come to the conclusion that this koan is meant to highlight the difference between those that must have answers and those that don't.
I will probably have another satori (western philosophy calls it an epiphinay) about this some day when I am running or driving to Chicago. Who knows? There are always questions, and seldom answers.
I ran the Tokyo Marathon two years in a row. The first year my wife and I were sent there as representatives of Orlando for a "sister-city" exchange.
I read a lot on the history of Japan and on Tokyo. I found out that there is a great tourist attraction named Kamakura within an hours train tide of Tokyo. I investigated Kamakura and found out that it was the first buddhist temple in Japan. It also became the seat for the first shogunate in the late 1100's.
It is a zen temple. So I picked up "The Three Pillars of Zen" by Kapleau. What an amazing book. It is about spiritualism and philosophy, not religion. The calming aspect of Zen has done wonders in my life, even making me enjoy Catholic mass for the first time. The Japanese can be Buddhist and Christian together. Zen is not about god-worshipping, it is about enjoying the gift of life. Answers or not the quest... but true happiness is.
Most people don't understand the Koan "What is the sound of one hand clapping". In my limited Zen exploration I have come to the conclusion that this koan is meant to highlight the difference between those that must have answers and those that don't.
I will probably have another satori (western philosophy calls it an epiphinay) about this some day when I am running or driving to Chicago. Who knows? There are always questions, and seldom answers.
- Sannop
by Sannop » Fri Jul 04, 2003 6:48 pm
Originally posted by Jeffro
I was a Christian...but I don't know what to believe anymore!
There is so much stuff out there that could change your thinking!
I believe that thinking clouds the pool of thought. Don't think, let the answers come (and the full answer never will).
- Keekanoo
by Keekanoo » Fri Jul 04, 2003 7:14 pm
Evan, you've exposed the gambit most religions play on their subjects: namely, 'You are a sinner/lost/evil, etc if you don't believe what we tell you is the right belief. You'll be eternally damned, never reborn, born again into a hellish life till you learn, etc etc.
It's lobster-trap thinking, which I detest.
I know there are spiritual powers 'out' there because I make use of them. Especially during the practice of various martial arts. When I am closest to moments of 'one-ness' with life, animals suddenly come near me. Even the wind seems to touch me in a different way.
Maybe I'm crackers, but I know I experience those things. Or at least I believe I do (there ya go Sannop :p).
It is said that Jesus said each person has their own relationship with God, that each must find Him in their own way. Shame that seems to have been lost in all the gobledy gook of religious texts.
It's lobster-trap thinking, which I detest.
I know there are spiritual powers 'out' there because I make use of them. Especially during the practice of various martial arts. When I am closest to moments of 'one-ness' with life, animals suddenly come near me. Even the wind seems to touch me in a different way.
Maybe I'm crackers, but I know I experience those things. Or at least I believe I do (there ya go Sannop :p).
It is said that Jesus said each person has their own relationship with God, that each must find Him in their own way. Shame that seems to have been lost in all the gobledy gook of religious texts.
- Rule of Wrist
by Rule of Wrist » Fri Jul 04, 2003 7:21 pm
I just read a book that relates to this topic; The DaVinci Code.
It is about the holy grail and secret societies and such. It is meticulously researched and well written.
Basically it talks about several theories about the REAL Jesus Christ that have been around for a while, but were new to me. It also talks about how the early catholic church subverted the writings of the apostles and those close to Jesus (even omitting some) to bend the populace to there will and maintain power over the world. This included legends about the devil, witches and the demonization of everything to do with pagan religions (the competition).
Granted it is a work of fiction and should be treated as such, but a lot of it I found very interesting.
It is about the holy grail and secret societies and such. It is meticulously researched and well written.
Basically it talks about several theories about the REAL Jesus Christ that have been around for a while, but were new to me. It also talks about how the early catholic church subverted the writings of the apostles and those close to Jesus (even omitting some) to bend the populace to there will and maintain power over the world. This included legends about the devil, witches and the demonization of everything to do with pagan religions (the competition).
Granted it is a work of fiction and should be treated as such, but a lot of it I found very interesting.
by Evan » Fri Jul 04, 2003 7:34 pm
Sannop, very enlightening.
You're thinking thing, however, is something I myself have seen. Even though I'm only 16, it is when I'm not thinking or have no use for thought that I realize that I don't, and shouldn't believe everthing that God 'says' in the Bible, or all the teachings from a priest.
To be honest with you all, I think that I suffer from depression. My mother left when I was 7 or 8. My house has burned down to the ground. My grandmother died of cancer 2 years after it had gone into recession (whatever the word is). My aunt also died from cancer. I never knew my biological father. I used to spend my childhood with various babysitters because my dad had to work shifts because his job liked to fuck him over.
PC gaming was always my way out of depression. I always turned to it to vent my anger, frustrations, depression. I took this job at ECGN because it helped get my mind off all that.
And it really did help. I feel like I am a happier person (believe it or not).
But one thing that my depression has done for me, is that it has opened up my eyes to the world. It was my depression that showed me how screwed up the world really is, and how screwed up major religions like my own were screwed up.
I also believe that I am finding God in my own way. One strong belief that I have, is that everything you do or everything that happens, happens for a reason. Well, I think that all the shit that has happened in my life has made me a better person. Stronger, not ignorant, and very patient, I have become something I don't think I could have been without being subjected through my own living 'hell'.
BTW: I think this is the most non-BS thread we've had here in a while.
You're thinking thing, however, is something I myself have seen. Even though I'm only 16, it is when I'm not thinking or have no use for thought that I realize that I don't, and shouldn't believe everthing that God 'says' in the Bible, or all the teachings from a priest.
To be honest with you all, I think that I suffer from depression. My mother left when I was 7 or 8. My house has burned down to the ground. My grandmother died of cancer 2 years after it had gone into recession (whatever the word is). My aunt also died from cancer. I never knew my biological father. I used to spend my childhood with various babysitters because my dad had to work shifts because his job liked to fuck him over.
PC gaming was always my way out of depression. I always turned to it to vent my anger, frustrations, depression. I took this job at ECGN because it helped get my mind off all that.
And it really did help. I feel like I am a happier person (believe it or not).
But one thing that my depression has done for me, is that it has opened up my eyes to the world. It was my depression that showed me how screwed up the world really is, and how screwed up major religions like my own were screwed up.
I also believe that I am finding God in my own way. One strong belief that I have, is that everything you do or everything that happens, happens for a reason. Well, I think that all the shit that has happened in my life has made me a better person. Stronger, not ignorant, and very patient, I have become something I don't think I could have been without being subjected through my own living 'hell'.
BTW: I think this is the most non-BS thread we've had here in a while.
.- Sannop
by Sannop » Fri Jul 04, 2003 7:58 pm
Evan I just read a book entitle "Let Your Life Speak". Several of its chapters are devoted to depression.
In my youth I was also plagued with it, and it rears its ugly head from time to time. The author argued that depression is our friend, keeping our feet planted on the ground. He says that it make us understand our “true self” (i.e. Buddha self, he uses Christian names for traditionally Buddhist concepts) and gets us on the road to a better happiness. He thinks that it prevents us from taking even higher falls. We create an image for ourselves based on our own egos, others expectation, man’s narrow view of religion (this one is for Keek :p back at ya) and another category that I forgot. When we realize that we are not that image, we might take a huge fall. He says depression keeps us on firm ground until we can have our own epiphanies (or satoris in eastern thought).
He uses this analogy… image that you are walking down the street toward a disaster. Your “true self” is like a friend waving to you to try to get your attention, trying to stop you. If you ignore it it will get bolder, eventually it might use the ultimate tool, depression. People that have gotten through a serious battle with depression often come out enlightened. They understand that the key is not to be somebody in the man’s created image, but to be true to themselves. The problem with depression is that it is a cure with serious side effects. I have added to his argument. I think that depression is like a very good drug. It can cure you, but you can also get addicted.
Also,
Keek, I do not blame organized religion for the problems that you mentioned. I blame man’s necessity for answers and to be correct as the blame for twisting something that could be beautiful. If I look to the true teachings of any religion, I find beauty. The message is not flawed, but many messengers are.
One more new thing,
Keek I also detest the idea that God sits in judgement based on how much I praise his name. Isn't vanity one of the seven sins. My God cares, he wants me to find happiness, and he wants me to be a good person. But I have found that most religions, at their heart, are based on this same princicple.
In my youth I was also plagued with it, and it rears its ugly head from time to time. The author argued that depression is our friend, keeping our feet planted on the ground. He says that it make us understand our “true self” (i.e. Buddha self, he uses Christian names for traditionally Buddhist concepts) and gets us on the road to a better happiness. He thinks that it prevents us from taking even higher falls. We create an image for ourselves based on our own egos, others expectation, man’s narrow view of religion (this one is for Keek :p back at ya) and another category that I forgot. When we realize that we are not that image, we might take a huge fall. He says depression keeps us on firm ground until we can have our own epiphanies (or satoris in eastern thought).
He uses this analogy… image that you are walking down the street toward a disaster. Your “true self” is like a friend waving to you to try to get your attention, trying to stop you. If you ignore it it will get bolder, eventually it might use the ultimate tool, depression. People that have gotten through a serious battle with depression often come out enlightened. They understand that the key is not to be somebody in the man’s created image, but to be true to themselves. The problem with depression is that it is a cure with serious side effects. I have added to his argument. I think that depression is like a very good drug. It can cure you, but you can also get addicted.
Also,
Keek, I do not blame organized religion for the problems that you mentioned. I blame man’s necessity for answers and to be correct as the blame for twisting something that could be beautiful. If I look to the true teachings of any religion, I find beauty. The message is not flawed, but many messengers are.
One more new thing,
Keek I also detest the idea that God sits in judgement based on how much I praise his name. Isn't vanity one of the seven sins. My God cares, he wants me to find happiness, and he wants me to be a good person. But I have found that most religions, at their heart, are based on this same princicple.
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